Forgive me for the Blasphemy ?
20th Nov 1998
RAJESH @wipsys.ge.com
Hello Folks
I have joined this list recently. I've a question which keeps bugging me
all the time. And after noting the mention of Bhagvad Geeta somewhere, I
thought this might be the place where *some* answers (and brickbats) may
come up:
Since childhood, I have been hearing and reading that Bhagvad Geeta is
one of the GREATEST books that mankind will ever come across. Every
theist (even some atheists too) has been recommending it to everyone else.
But, I *found* the Bhagvad Geeta really disappointing. And please bear in
mind the fact that I've arrived at the above conclusion not just after a
casual perusal of the Geeta but after cover-to-cover reading of three
versions of it (those include the one where interpretations are given by
Dr. Radhakrishnan). The most distressing thing about the Geeta is that it
looks like one of those books where the protagonist (Lord Krishna) keeps
singing paens of himself. The rest all stuffs like bothering about your
own job at hand leaving the results to HIM are all good. But the
self-praise, beyond one stage, becomes unbearable. It also is not a good
lesson in humility.
Many elders and well-wishers keep recommending Geeta to me. As a result, I
have tried (three times as has already been mentioned) to make some sense
out of it but in vain. Please don't take it as the usual arrogance of the
products of X-generation or MTV age. Neither am I an atheist (I strongly
believe in God). I'm also not one of those card-carrying communist who
hate anything remotely related to Hinduism. Ironically, I'm sympathetic to
the BJP, the so-called Hindu fundamentalist party. But, let's keep all
these political issues aside. What I want to emphasize here is that I want
some convincing logic or rationale for what Lord Krishna keeps saying
throughout Geeta: Admire me, Adore me, Cajole me, Pray me. Someone please
come up with some good and serious argument. I don't want the typical
Sadhu-Sansyasi type answer that Lord Krishna wants to ram it into my
system: that I must remember him everyday. That I'll do in anycase.
Instead, he could have said something useful.
I know this mail is getting longer. I want to stop here. I hope you have
understood my dilemmas.
Please help.
Keep Faith
Rajesh Agrawal
Bangalore
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-- ----------------------------------- Mujhe Tuffan Kehta Hai Wo Kishti
Dubo Dega Agar Sab Kuchch Wohi Hai To Khuda Kuchch Bhi Nahin Hai Kya
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21st Nov 1998
Sears @bom3.vsnl.net.in
Rajesh,
I have not read the Bhagwad Geeta as many times as you have read but
have tried to u/stand it from whatever I have read & the conculsion that I
have drawn is as follows:-
Lord Krishna sings praises for HIMSELF because HE is GOD himself - HE also
says that all humans are part of HIM so as a result he also means that all
good that is in HIM is also there in all humans provided we understand and
follow the preachings and behave the way HE wants every individual to.
The results are not known and we should not try to do our actions based on
the results thereof because that is not within our reach. The philosophy
and complexity is too great for any one individual to try and understand
it or try to change things because all humans being part of the supreme
being are a subset of HIM but not HIM - I understand it as - just like
lots of bees are required to make a beehive and no one individual bee can
claim to be the creator of the Bee hive so also all individuals strive to
do good and do their actions but the entire results of such actions of all
individuals put togather are beyond comprehension of any individual and
only HE knows the result.
HIS praise for HIMSELF is also a means of making the individual feel
more concerned for himself as he is part of GOD and also when you praise
HIM the individual learns humilty and not the other way round. I am a
Gujarati and when we greet somebody we normally say " Jai Shri Krishna" -
other religions also say similar things - this is because when you say
this you are saying that I see Lord Krishna in the other person whom I am
greeting.
I hope I have been able to express myself without hurting anybody's
religious beliefs. Please excuse if any error on my part.
Regards
21st Nov 1998
GIRISH.JAIRAM.KALRA @giasbmc.vsnl.net.in
Hi!
I read your message regarding the BhagvadGita. I understand your problem.
However you should understand that Lord Krishna in the Bhagvad Gita does
not praise himself but tells the absolute truth. I have queried on this
issue several times and I am able to understand that every single word
spoken by him in the Gita is correct. it is only a matterof faith and
deeper understanding on your part that is required to understand the
essence of the gita. by the way, the Gita does not in any way try to bring
out the superiroity of one religion over another. Lord Krishna nowhere
mentions that Hinduism is better than other religions. In the true sense
religion is propogated by people who are giving their own judgements on
the Gita. In case you still need clarification, you can read the book
"BhagvadGita As It Is" by Srila Prabhupada, the founder of ISKCON. You can
also visit any of the Iskcon temples world wide to get insight into this
issue.
Bye!
21st Nov 1998
Vivek Malpani @indrayani.com
Dear Rajesh,
Hi !! At one point you say that you believe in God, at another, your
question of the Lord's self praise. Well, if one seriously believed in
Him, such a question would not have arisen. Anyway, my answer to this:
Knowing that all humans are not great thinkers or intellectuals, the Lord
has spoken the Geeta for the benefit of one and all, in any situation that
he may be. Take the case of a poor farmer, illiterate, unsophisticated,
yet humble and simple. He makes his living by working in the field all
day. Now if the Lord were to preach him with high funda definitions like,
"What is the Atman, what is the Body, Mind, Intellect, who is the
Perceiver, Feeler, Thinker, what are the Objects, Emotions, Thought, What
are the panchakoshas, the Gross Body, Subtle Body, Causal Body " (All this
is there in the Upanishads, explained in great convincing detail for an
intellectual), then the simple farmer would have been confused
thoroughly. Instead, he needs simple instructions. He may wonder, "what do
I do in life?", "Who's the Lord?" For him, simple answers are enough.
So the words could be directed towards people with that frame of mind.
Even an intellectual may face a time in life where he feels so
demoralized, dejected, that only such words of authority may give him
solace and support.
Anyways, if one is sure that it is Him alone that pervades the entire
universe, these doubts would be of little relevance. In any case one can
always turn to study of the Upanishads, to get a very logical
understanding.
All the Best,
Sudarshan Malpani,
[email protected]
Bombay
22nd Nov 1998
Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic @bc.seflin.org
On 11/20/98, ""RAJESH" " wrote:
> Since childhood, I have been hearing and reading that Bhagvad Geeta is
> one of the GREATEST books that mankind will ever come across. Every
> theist (even some atheists too) has been recommending it to everyone
> else. But, I *found* the Bhagvad Geeta really disappointing. And please
> bear in mind the fact that I've arrived at the above conclusion not just
> after a casual perusal of the Geeta but after cover-to-cover reading of
> three versions of it (those include the one where interpretations are
> given by Dr. Radhakrishnan). The most distressing thing about the Geeta
> is that it looks like one of those books where the protagonist (Lord
> Krishna) keeps singing paens of himself. The rest all stuffs like
> bothering about your own job at hand leaving the results to HIM are all
> good. But the self-praise, beyond one stage, becomes unbearable. It also
> is not a good lesson in humility.
Dear Rajesh, I had missed your message when it came to me by email but
became interested in it after reading two responses to it therefore I went
back to website and am responding by web this time.
I have to assure you that you are not alone in reaching this conclusion. I
was raised as a child by a very orthodox Brahmin father and have studied
not only Gita but several Upnishads, Purans, Manusmriti and Ramayan etc
very thoroughly and devotedly. I have also passed several examinations
conducted by Gita Press, Gorakhpur in Ramayan and Gita. ( I am not sure if
these courses are still being offered or not). Therefore nobody can accuse
me for not knowing about these sacred texts. However, for some reason, I
started seeing holes in the arguments of all the sacred texts and became a
skeptic as you can see on my home page. I am just surprised why people
like you and me are so few while the majority remains gullible and does
not apply logic and reason to religious texts.
Having since migrated to USA, I find that fundamentalism and gullibility
is as much popular in the West and in India.
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
(c)1998 Aditya Mishra
homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ Pager: 1131674
Random thought of the day:
Mollison's Bureaucracy Hypothesis: If an idea can survive a bureaucratic
review and be implemented, it wasn't worth doing.
23rd Nov 1998
vikram @kshitij.com
Dear Rajesh,
Please don't consider your question as Blasphemy. The Hindu
Philosophical discipline does not consider any Honest question or
doubt as blasphemy. It recognises it for what it is - an honest
question or doubt.
It might help you if you put the words of Krishna such as "praise
me, adore me, admire me" etc. in the context of the most basic
tenet of Hindu Philosophy given in the following:
...Aham Brahmasmi.......I am The Eternal/ God/ Force/ Whatever
...Shivoham, Shivoham.....I am Shiva
...Tat Twam Asi....YOU are THAT
Hindu philosophy says YOU (Rajesh) and I (Vikram) are the Force,
the Life Principle, the Eternal etc.
Krishna's words in the Geeta can be looked at from a number of
angles and can be seen to be applicable to the realities of the
person reading those words.
To a person who thinks of God as someone other than himself,
Krishna says love Me, in the form of Krishna, the cowherd.
To a person who thinks of God as someone none other than
himself, Krishna says Love Me (that is, love yourself), Admire Me
(that is, admire yourself), Adore Me (that is, adore yourself).
The questions that can then arise are, "Who am I?" and "Is this
guy actually teaching me arrogance?"
Throughout the Geeta, Krishna gives techniques to help you
quieten your Mind, whereafter you will be able to answer the first
question more easily. The process of quietening the mind (the
most advisable technique being "Do your work, leave the fruits" etc)
itself takes you closer to the answer to this question. The second
question is a feeble doubt, which will not deter any honest seeking of
answers to the first question.
It might also help you to increase your faith in the teachings of
Geeta (forget Krishna the character if he is an ego-maniac. Ask
yourself whether he's speaking the truth......I mean, you'll accept
the truth even if its coming from Snoopy the Dog, wouldn't you?) to
know that those who have achieved greatness in life have turned to
it time and again for the strength inherent in the truths it holds.
Stuff like this is discussed regularly (weekly) by members of the
MTV and X Generation all over India. Questions are raised, doubts
are cleared, new insights are gained, strengths are discovered. All
through honest, fearless questioning, analysis and discussion.
Should you want to try it, you could contact the Chinmaya Yuva
Kendra, the youth wing of the Chinmaya Mission. If I'm not
mistaken, you can find them on the Web at
http://www.chinmaya.org
Hari Om
- Vikram Murarka
[email protected]
Vikram Murarka
Director
Kshitij Consultancy Services
8, Old Post Office Street
Calcutta - 700 001
INDIA
[email protected]
http://www.kshitij.com
Ph: 00-91-33-2480059, 2104634, 2427370
Fax: 00-91-33-2207857, 2427370
27th Nov 1998
Vivek Murarka @manaskriti.com
Dear Aditya & Rajesh,
I drafted the mail below soon after I read Rajesh's query. Then
I read the rest of the mail I had downloaded that day. And I
thought that Rajesh had received satisfactory responses - esp.
because he did not react to any of them. So I deleted the mail
below from my send queue. Then the Skeptic explained himself. So
I was tempted to resurrect my two-books bit.
Regards
Vivek
PS : You may have already read the books I suggest. In that
case, re-read all the books mentioned in the steps. I,
unfortunately, am yet to read the Geeta. But this thread has
made me put it on my To-Read list.
--------
Dear Rajesh
These may be half baked steps to help you out of your
dilemma(s).
So save them only until you get better suggestions :
1. Go back a few score mails on this list - get the sloka
defining infinity. Ponder thereupon.
2. Ponder upon "Tat Twam Asi" - Thou Art That - in conjunction
with "Om Purna Madaha .... " and the teachings of the Geeta.
3. Read Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead". Then read "Atlas
Shrugged" by the same author (In that order - The other way
around is the wrong way). Ponder thereupon. The latter book is
recommended as the Geeta of/for the Modern World by some people
who have read and understood both (The Geeta & Atlas Shrugged).
4. Delve a bit into the background of the Geeta. Realise the
times in which it was written. Understand that it is written in
an almost unique style. Appreciate that it is allegoric and that
a lot of it uses metaphors for concepts that most people
(then and now) cannot handle in the form of concepts.
5. Come back to the list with the result.
Basically, having gone through the text (and commentary) thrice
you must understand that to understand the teachings of the
Geeta you must introspect upon it (before, while and after
reading it) and must apply it in your daily life. And you must
avoid being bogged down by the seemingly larger than life self-
image of Krishna which you find in it. For a more human (and our-
worldly) image of Krishna you can read The Mahabharat. In fact
reading the Geeta without reading the Mahabharat is just like
reading Atlas Shrugged without Fountainhead. In fact it can be
worse.
HTH
Vivek
27th Nov 1998
Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic @bc.seflin.org
On 27 Nov 98, Vivek Murarka wrote:
> Dear Aditya & Rajesh,
>
> I drafted the mail below soon after I read Rajesh's query. Then
> I read the rest of the mail I had downloaded that day. And I
> thought that Rajesh had received satisfactory responses - esp.
> because he did not react to any of them. So I deleted the mail
> below from my send queue. Then the Skeptic explained himself. So
> I was tempted to resurrect my two-books bit.
I do not about know Rajesh to comment about his own reaction to the two
responses that you refer to.
I can only speak about myself and since I was not only not satisfied with the
two numbo-jumbo responses but my curiosity became so aroused with the
curiosity that I had go to the web archive to read his original letter. Normally
I ignore such matters and do not get involved in matters pertaining to once
faith. In this I considered it appropriate to assure him that his questions
were legitimate and have bothered many a people before him the earliest
and most prominent of whom was Siddhartha.
FYI if you read my earlier message you will find that I have a lot more of
Hindu scriptures than you might assume. I have read not only Mahabharat
but most of the other Purans as well and am familiar with the approach of
these books. As a matter of fact the more I read the more convinced I
became of their facade and shallowness of various interpretations.
