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Another collapse!
17th April 1999 Srinath Srinivasa @Informatik.TU-Cottbus.DE
I knew it, I knew it!! But didn't everybody?? Still, bringing a nation of 950 million to its heals by *one* vote is really unprecedented!! Hats of to the display of stupidity! How do you speculate things now, then?? We need to really explore the rationale behind coalition politics and their operationalizations... Best, Srinath -- Send in your ideas to address challenges of Indian life: http://www.indiapolicy.org/ifi
17th April 1999
neeraj chaturvedi @hotmail.com
very unfortunate!!!! congress....is the real bitch party...which never wants india to come up.... Till the time economy was doing bad....prices were rising...communal clashesh were there....they never tried to pull down the govt...they just encashed it for winning elections... As soon as economy started doing well....everything was set properly...they toppled the government...(forget the Amma...we should talk only about the people...who have any sense) We need stable & economy oriented govt.....congress!!! pls give us if u can for next 4 yrs...we dont want elections anymore..... rgds neeraj
18th April 1999
djayanta @in.ibm.com
Mr. Srinath, Before u sarcastically express ur "hats off" to the politicians and the people in general on the recent hurricane that stormed our Parliament.... please note that it is we, you and I and the 950 millions (to quote ur no.)., .. who have voted and which has resulted in a hung state of affair. The current state of affair was predictable some 13 months back..... this Confidence Motion only led to the culmination of an event that would have happened..... later or even earlier. Fact is " People deserve the type government of which they are made of.......". So before we start pointing the finger at one party or the other....lets remember the fact that four other fingers are pointing at self. No offence please....i am as much a patriot, if not more, as you are and do spare few minutes thinking and discussing about our country. And we can ensure stability to our country by electing a party with decent majority. Thats what we need. Lets do it.... instead of bickering over " an Italian"...." a saffron".....et all. Country's need of the moment is financial stability, which only a political stability can assure. Thanks & Regards Jayanta Ph: (022) 820 0463/4/6, 0454/6/7(O), Mobile : 98202 91985 , e-mail : [email protected] "..................we live in an age when pizzas reach our home faster than the police ................"
18th April 1999
B.K.Gupta @del2.vsnl.net.in
Mr. Srinath, It was good that the BJP Govt. fell. In any case how long and with what efficiency this, or in that matter, any other Govt would have lasted when the Govt. has only 2 legs and the pullers R so many. I fully agree with you that the governance of coolition is all bull sh. Let our countrymen wake up and do not vote for unwanted, unproductive, illiterate -------, lalloos and let them give a clear mandate in favour of just one party. BK
18th April 1999
D. Haldar @pobox.com
Glad you raise the point. No longer any one gets absolute mandate in the Parliament because our electorate is dumb and is persuaded to vote for individuals and regional parties by the protoganists. We are worse than Italy. Someone has suggested that we are a Banana democracy. Solution? Abolish adult franchise for ten years say until the voters have a reasonable amount of literacy. And another condition is imperative: he/she should be a responsible citizen. This should be defined i.e. the term "responsible" by the parliament. Once the riff raffs are eliminated you are bound to see a pattern towards two or three party democracy. Until then you can hold any number of general elections and you will get a fractured mandate. Coalition never works for obvious reasons: it only helps to destabilise.
19th April 1999
Puneet Pawaia @scconline.com
Hi All, My first reaction is of utter disgust. 950 million people held to ransom by 500 odd thugs and goons. None of these people in the Parliament care about the Nation. How can you hope for the likes of Lallo who have many cases of corruption against them, to think of any thing other than their own self. We have the Congress claiming that BJP has been misruling the country. Well, in 13 months the Congress has been able to seem the BJP's misrule but in almost 50 years of its rule, it has not been able to see its misrule ? And talk of secularism. I guess it was a very secular thing to do in 1984 when thousands of innocent Sikhs were murdered. We have HKL Bhagat and others accused of instigating these riots. Bhagat was in the top ranks of the Congress. Yet Dara Singh, of the Bajrang Dal, who was a non entity before the Stiens case is made to be the sole representative of BJP. Furthermore, look at all the MPs who have run up enormous bills for telephones, air travel, accommodation etc, yet are not accountable for these pending dues. They still avail the same facilities. Yet if we are unable to pay one telephone bill for Rs 370, we face disconnection. The parliament is said to cost some 10 or so lakhs to run per hour, but how many hours do these MPs really do any thing productive, all they do is stop work by jumping into the well of the house. It is no wonder that India is facing a Brain Drain. Any intelligent person has the desire to use his mental capacities to create something worthwhile, but the environment in India is certainly not conducive to this. And it is we 950 million people who continue to bring these thugs and goons to the parliament. I shall no longer give my vote to any party. However as I fear that my vote will be cast anyway as it has been done in the past by someone other than me, I shall cast my vote but ensure that it is made invalid. And I also suggest that once a parliament has been elected, it must ensure that it works for the full period of 5 years. Maybe one of the Lawyer friends on this list can help and bring up a PIL in this regard. A disgusted Indian Puneet Pawaia
19th April 1999
[email protected]
Guys, What do you say about Arif Mohammed;s (BSP MP) statement given to the Press openly in the Public : " We want elections, early elections and FREQUENT ELECTIONS and our main aim is to bring about elections so that it helps Bahujan Samaj" I don;t get the logic. Sonu Sonzy (ICQ : 4772207)
19th April 1999
Srinath S @email.com
Well, I don't think the problem is either with the leaders or the electorate. Basically, I am not pointing any finger at either of them. But the fact is that the government has bowed down and affairs of a large country has become uncertain yet another time. I think the problem is with the treatment of a coalition parliament in the same way as a single party govt., while coalition by its very definition, implies diversity, and hence a tendency towards noconfidence motions. By itself, a coalition is really representative of popular support-- a real democracy in action. You certainly cannot expect a population of 950 million-- as it grows in size and diversity, and also in literacy, to be coherent with one single ideology of one single party, to make it the majority party. Whether we want it or not-- coalition has come to stay-- it is better to look at the democratic nature of a coalition. It is only that it is susceptible to falldowns, and if there is an opportunity to bring something down, you can bet that someone would try it someday. If something can go wrong, it will. Srinath
19th April 1999
CUSTOMER CARE CENTRE @bom2.vsnl.net.in
This is a time to introspect. Our experience is live and online. India, is one of the few young democracies of the world with a mere 50 years of freedom. The uniqueness is the size, demography and the mosaic of Indian electorate. Our constitution, legislature, administration, legal, defence structures are based on the British pattern. The developmental efforts are merely administrative or legislative corrections and modifications than any comprehensive and needbased total reviews and revisions. Also, the lack of vision, outlook, experience in the post independence political leadership of India has contributed to this mess. The systems and leadership are interwined in the Indian democracy. What I mean is that good leadership adds value to systems reform and such effective reforms lead to good society/representatives. Our electoral system and parliamentary system is a classic example of such a weakness. Based on mere conventions and intepretations, the ruling of the Speaker on the Orissa Chief Minister's status as a Member of Lok Sabha is the symptom of such a poor state of system and political leadership. Several other examples can be quoted, as well. The fall of the BJP government is just a page in history. What's more critical is.... 1. Is our parliament really representative of the Indian electoral mosaic? 2. Is our bi-cameral legislature, meeting the needs of our times and is the upper house Rajya Sabha, fulfilling any need for which its constituted? 3. Is our Parliament only the Lok Sabha or does the Rajya Sabha and the President, the Supreme Court have or rather need to have a role in critical matters of national importance ? 4. What is the role of such important bodies like the Ntional Integration Council ? The questions can be endless.... The answer is one.. the lack of political will, quality of leadership and above all the non performing electorate. Pre-independence India had legal wizards to frame, interpret and also visualise the depth and content of Indian political management. The The difference between now and then was the quality of leadership or rather the lack of it. Not, certainly the electorate. We remain as passive, uninvolved and as mysterious as ever. The political leadership based on religions, regions,castes,classes, and even families will harm the country as much as the electorate gets drifted away from concerns for the country. Leaders such as Vajpayee, LK Advani, Chandrasekhar,Chidambaram, Manmohan Singh, Sushma Swaraj, Madhavrao Scindia, Pranab Mukherjea, are gradually giving way to the Mayawatis, Sharad Yadavs, and several other notable varieties of leadership. This is a cause for concern. We must seek the following for any improvements in Indian polity : 1. A thorough revamp or rewriting of the constitution. Even countries like Singapore have a functional one. We should aim to make our constitution centred on the social and economic well being of the state. A green book with regulations to spell out programmes,implementation guidelines and evaluation norms must be appended on all aspects of Indian government and performance. The emphasis should be on simplicity and reflection of modern state management alongwith the reflections of changing electorate profile. 2. Revamp of the structure of governance. Is a Prsidential government or proportional representation appropriate as an alternative ? Is there a better system to emulate ? 3. Qualifications for election and code of conduct. This needs a review. 4. The electorate should have a right to recall their elected representative. 5. Maybe categories of membership for Lok Sabha should be introduced with corresponding powers for such categories. If civil services exams categorise selected skills based on their proficiency, why cant we push the same for the elected representatives ? 6. Political parties and their conduct.... 7. Is a 5 year term appropriate or anyother for our parliament ? 8. Can this country be considered as management units for better and more efficent governance and accordingly the national budget be framed ? 9. Beuacracy and accountability.... norms and code of conduct and bid goodbye to the much defunct IAS method of administration. The list is endless...... But the beginning has to be made... Then, the question of losing and winning will not be decided in Parliament but by the electorate and the winning edge will not be 1 or 2 MPs but the performance record of the party. If wishes were horses... some might argue... I agree. But remember the pessimist is one who invented the parachute which is useful to society,too. Bye for now Ramkumar
20th April 1999
Srinath Srinivasa @email.com
Wow. Ramkumar has certainly raised a lot of pertinent issues. With your permission and Vani's, I would like to archive the ideas presented-- perhaps you might want to rewrite them again? Well, coming to the issues-- I don't think the blame is on the electorate because this is just the essence of democracy-- that each person votes for the party/icon that s/he wants. But then, we cannot "blame" the electorate if a clear majority does not come through. In fact, it talks about the diversity of thinking (or whatever that people indulge in, to cast their votes!:) Coalitions, by themselves aren't bad-- they are indeed more democratic (in spirit) than single party governments. No confidence motion is something like the recall of a government-- which is rare to happen in single party governments. But what is most intriguing in this case is that, the present incident is analogous to the situation where a complete building falls down on the removal of one brick-- any brick! If you see, AIADMK did not have much of a stake in the government-- the number of seats that they contributed were pretty less. But then, a withdrawal of support by them resulted in a trust vote to be called. Perhaps, we should first avoid this-- a trust vote should be called based on the stake that the party which withdraws support, holds. Semantically it is right as well-- one brick should not bring the house down-- only large walls should do that. What I would suggest is that (if wishes were horses!:) a trust vote should be called only if there is withdrawal of support from at least one thirds of the seats in the government. Welcoming your comments, Srinath
20th April 1999
Mohan @md2.vsnl.net.in
Hello All, For once I'm in complete agreement with Puneet.... yes, twice i've voted in the general elections and both times i made sure my vote becomes invalid - i stamped over all the symbols.... and i suggested the same to all my friends.... And I wish we rather had a military rule... so much for democracy.... are we supposed to have criminals and gangsters rule us? Mohan
20th April 1999
Abhishek Prakash Sharma @cal.vsnl.net.in
Yeah we are the people who are responsible for the hung goverment .We never gave the clear mandate . Who are we to say something about toppling goverment or any other thing when we are the one who are responsible for it.
20th April 1999
Pia Promina DasGupta Barve @giascl01.vsnl.net.in
Dear Friend, This is a democratic country . We all have the right to vote. It is necessary to take a decision and vote for the candidate you thing most worthy of your vote. By stamping over all the symbols, you are not casting a vote. If you do not caste a vote - you lose the right to crib. Democracy gives us the power to vote in the government of our choice. Revere your right to vote - many people in the world are denied this right. Regards Pia.
21st April 1999
K.Varatharajan @igcar.ernet.in
Dear Friend, I accept with you totally. Military rule is the need of the hour for our country. K. Varatharajan
21st April 1999
P srini @hotmail.com
Hi all!! With reference to the debate going on about the govt. collapse, I would like to throw my further 0.02 worth.. As Ram kumar pointed out the constitutional reform is the order of the day. In the days when Dr. Ambedkar, Nehru and other visionaries formulated the constitution the whole polity of India was fresh. With spirited and dedicated leaders like Patel, ambedkar, nehru who were martyrs in true sense and had a sense of idealism towards what would be better for the country. But little did they underestimate the deleterious effects the freedom enjoyed in this greatest democracy would have giving rise to immoral corrupt short-sighted ruthless mindless and greedy politicians of the present genre..( I am speaking of the rule rather than the exception).Perhaps we do not deserve this level of freedom. Maybe indian polity needs a iron hand for an effective governance. But that would the very anathema of the basic democractic principles india has stood for as the world's greatest democracy. The last fifty years has seen nothing but an utter misuse of the much touted freedom granted by that constitution in the world's so called greatest democracy. On a positive note, as I was reading in a column in BBC, even in these extreme circumstances democratic norms have been held high in certain ways..like it pointed out the agreeing of mr viajpayee to hold a confidence motion immediately after president's direcitive, the agreeing of all parties to pass the budget to avoid a financial crisis, these are definite symbolisms showing the strengths of democracy. Coming back to the question of constitutional reform it is the one primary order of the day needed to strengthen the democracy in the future in India. Because the esrtwhile days of the congress being the single major party in India is gone. Under such circumstances, coalition governments will be the norm rather than exception in today's scenario. As suggested by Ram kumar, many questions need to be effectively answered in reformulation of the constituion. 1). The most important in my opinion is the centre-state relations.. In recent past it has been more often rule than exception that regional voting patterns has been the main reason for the divergent landscape of the parliament in india which today has around 45 political parties represented in the parliament. The recent trend has been a diverse set of regional factors affecting party strenghts in diverse parts of india. BJP is known for its weakness in south. CPM is known for its strengths only in bengal tripura and kerala. congress has virtually been wiped out in the recent past from UP and bihar. Under such circumstances national parties are also behaving like regional parties. This aside from the emergence of strong regional parties like Telugu desam, DMK,AIADMK, AGP etc . All these are indications of the needs of the present day indian polity. we have to be realistic in accepting the fact that states are having and desring a greater say. In that sense, it is right to move towards a more federalistic scheme of governance with more powers to states. This should be done sooner or later to dampen the effect of ill-happenings at centre on the whole country, its economy. A few years ago Sarkaria commission was formed in right earnest to go through this centre-state relations. But this has been shelved as there is no mention of it anywherein the recent past.. So i suggest centre-state relations is the first primary area of constituional reform in the present circumstances and for the future as well. An aside of this could be whether an insertion of a presidential form of government will achieve this desired reform is debatable. 2). The second most important step which is a source of immediate concern is literacy. Mass volunteer movements need to be orchestrated to improve the literacy of the common man. Only when the common man is literate can he make better judgements on his vote. In that context, a minimum education level is necessary to be imposed on all politicians too. Education can be a great panacea to the present ills of the indian polity. Can there be something in the constitution that can ensure this? These are some of my thoughts on the current problems which i wished to contribute. Any discussion welcome. -Srinivas Padmanabhuni 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 Web Architect http://www.samilan.com - Home of SAIR, biggest search engine for India http://www.indianmythology.com - A budding site on Indian Mythology http://topsites.indianet.org - India Top 200 sites 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
21st April 1999
K.Varatharajan @igcar.ernet.in
Dear Mr. Srinath, Of course, you are right by saying that one third of members in treasury bench should withdraw support for no confidence motion. But, the problem is that in democracy, minority versus majority plays more than the hypothesis you have proposed. So, my idea is that there must be some compromising equation between minority and majority of the people in the interest of the nation, as after all whether you belong to minority or you belong to majority, you are an Indian. Till the day, when such a spirit emerges in every Indian's mind, problems equivalent to the present time will go on tormenting. I think such a day is nearing by God's grace. Regards, K. Varatharajan
23rd April 1999
PK Joseph @gto.net.om
The military rule is easy to suggest: But look at the countries where the Military is given other jobs than protecting the borders and see their faith. Why go far. Look in Pakistan. Please think before making your suggestions: All the rapes in 10 years happen( in any country) in just one intervention of the military. This is common all over the world. The people get a government which they deserves. Why blame the politicians? P.K.J.
23rd April 1999
Srinath Srinivasa @email.com
Dear Mr Varatharajan, Yes you are right, of course, that a sense of values should direct our actions. If only the leaders could have thought a bit more deeply, it could have occurred to them that this drama would not achieve anything of value to the nation, and would only end up incurring unnecessary expenses. So, while we should no doubt inculcate values and ideals among ourselves to look beyond the number game, we should also be prepared to face the situation where values are not respected. The constitution or laws governing the formation of government should ensure some safety and security against efforts to self destruct. Warm Regards Srinath
25th April 1999
Kiran Kothari @hotmail.com
Srinath, I don't entirely agree with you. We, all electorate have made mistake of not choosing one party having sufficient majority. I think we should give BJP a thumping majority in case there are elections. Congress has failed miserably and making gross mistakes and they should not pardoned. Dr. Kiran Kothari
25th April 1999
Srinath S @email.com
Dr Kothari, I agree that a single party would be much more efficient than a coalition. But then, how can "we"-- which consists of 950 million people make a consensus among ourselves, while it was hard for a set of a few hundred people called politicians to come to a consensus among themselves? Sure, I can see some remarks like "politicians aren't people, they are just some selfish somethings...", but whatever it is, I guess you can see that we cannot rely on the large electorate to come up with a clear majority and not do anything about the case where a clear majority does not emerge. It reminds me of the time when I was in college that we had been given a programming assignment. When the teacher was evaluating the projects, I heard this following discussion-- Teacher: Well, your program crashes if I try to minimize the figure to a scale below zero. Student: But Sir, you are not *supposed* to scale below zero! Of course you are not *supposed* to; of course, we are *supposed* to think and vote and emerge on a clear consensus. But the program-- the constitutional system should not become vulnerable and crash if it does not happen. Of course you are not *supposed* to; of course, we are *supposed* to think and vote and emerge on a clear consensus. But the program-- the constitutional system should not become vulnerable and crash if it does not happen. Best, Srinath -- Send in your ideas to address challenges of Indian life: http://www.indiapolicy.org/ifi
2nd May 1999
Anup Sharma @giascl01.vsnl.net.in
Dr Kothari, I totally agree with you. The BJP deserves one fair chance and everyone who wants to give this government a chance should cast their votes and should make sure that others around them also vote and their votes are not wasted because surveys suggest that most literate elctorate do not cast their vote due to different reasons lik weather, rush and most of all, apthy towards the outcome. Anup
5th May 1999
D.Haldar @pobox.com
The BSP has been increasing its tally at every election. So their Presiident Kanshi Ram thinks that they will go on winning more and more seats every time there is election. This is the simple logic of Kanshi Ram and Mayavati. ------------------- >At 11:43 PM 4/19/99 +0530, [email protected] wrote: > >Guys, > >What do you say about Arif Mohammed;s (BSP MP) statement given to the Press >openly in the Public : > >" We want elections, early elections and FREQUENT ELECTIONS and our main >aim is to bring about elections so that it helps Bahujan Samaj" > >I don;t get the logic. > >Sonu >Sonzy >(ICQ : 4772207)
