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Leper Home head slaughtered

24th Jan 1999      Kerry R Kinchen @stic.net

Hello all,
Here is the recent example of the mindless rampage occurring all across
India.
The head of the Baripada leprosy home in Orissa was burned alive along with
his two young children Friday.
............................................................................
........................
"A report from Bhubaneswar says a 58-year old Australian, Graham Stewart
Staines, belonging to the Evangelical Missionary Society of Mayurbhanj and
his two minor sons were burnt alive when the vehicle in which they were
sleeping was set on fire on Friday night at Manoharpur village, about 180 km
from Baripada...The police said Graham along with the others had gone to the
village on a ``jungle camp,'' an annual gathering of Christians of the area.
Graham had been living in Baripada since 1965. The Evangelical Society,
besides religious preaching, also runs a 100-bed leprosy home..."

This excerpt is from the article in the "Times Of India" Jan. 24, Sunday,
1999.
http://www.timesofindia.com/today/24home1.htm

Regards,
Kerry
[email protected]


24th Jan 1999      Srinath Srinivasa @usa.net

First it was Gujarat, now it is in Orissa. When will this madness stop?
It is not possible to get shocked so many times so frequently. What
causes such brutal acts of terror? What goes on in the minds of these
people? Whatever be the arguments, violent fanaticism must be one of the
lowliest kinds of animal behavior. 

Incidents like this make me shudder to look into the future of our
society. Are we heading to an imminent savage era in the history of our
country? 

srinath


25th Jan 1999      Aseem Asthana @bom4.vsnl.net.in

   Hello there,

   The recent incident in Orissa, of the mod killing an
   Australian missionary and his two young sons is a real shock.
   I wonder what will be the kind of people who can do such a
   thing as this. Can u imagine two young boys and their father
   being burned alive inside a jeep. They are being burnt to
   death in front of their father and the father can do nothing
   to protect them. He is also inside the jeep. And the raving
   mad mob outside shouting 'Jai Shri Ram'. They have put Lord
   Ram himself to shame. I don't think that HE would have
   allowed such things to happen. The police is blaming the
   Bajrag Dal for this. Those people with their ideology of
   Hindutva feel that they can bring Ram Rajya by doing things
   like this??

   I wonder about the people who could have done such a thing
   just because somebody called Dara exhorted them into doing
   such an act.  Imagine their psychology.

   I have forsaken my own people . I  live in dream palaces,
   building castles in air, thinking that India has progressed,
   just because I can launch missiles, chat on internet, and
   detonate nuclear devices. I live in a sense of false
   security, surrounded by soaps, beauty lotions, designer wear
   et al. And for those of us who are inclined to think that
   these are the evils of a western civilization thrust upon us,
   I would say, Oh! What a flawed culture that allows its values
   of three thousand years to be wiped out in some decades. I
   have this sense of false security when the real India passes
   by me Hungry, Cold and Sad. On a rly platform in Indore I saw
   a women an her three children eating what was perhaps their
   only meal of the day. Two rotis and one large onion chopped
   in four with a large helping of salt. But onions don't come
   cheap. And while I am at peace with my air castles, those who
   come from outside to help my people are burnt.

   I think, that on the whole our whole society is to blame. As
   opposed to the popular notion that Indian society is very
   polite and sensitive to others feelings, we as a people are
   becoming more and more cruel.  We are not very polite people.
   Just look at how an average Delhiwalla talks to you. Look at
   UP, Bihar, Orissa and you will know that we are no apostles
   of politeness. And as far as being sensitive to others
   feelings is concerned, just forget it. There are any number
   of cases I have seen where boys throw stones at stray dogs
   for fun. In one case, in Ujjain, I even witnessed a man
   kicking, with all his might, a small puppy. On being asked
   why did so, I was told to mind my business. In the ensuing
   fight I learnt that he got a sense of being MACHO from such
   acts. I think that somehwere along the way we have lost the
   basic Indianness. Though we are still proud to flaunt it and
   cite our contribution to the world, while our own lives are
   in shambles. People may be not inclined to belive that the
   lives of Indians are in shambles but Delhi and Bombay and a
   handful of other cities are not India. What Gandhiji said,
   that India lives in its villages, is as true as it was 50
   years back. And life of an average Indian in the village is
   not in shambles. It is SHATTERED!!

   India is passing through very tough times. The hardest test
   lies in the soial arena. Can be pull together the act and
   continue as a nation, a great nation that we boast to be? Or
   are we going the Yugoslavia way, killing each other and not
   caring, not being sensitive to not only others needs and
   wants but also to their pain and their fears. That is what we
   need today to survive as a nation and, in my small
   understanding, I think that is what the world's religions
   have tried to teach us all this while.

   I understand that not all people may like this piece. I am
   ready for the flames. For even in the flames, you will be
   expressing opinion and expressing opinion is the first step
   to making Indians sensitive, for by expressing our opinions
   we cease to be indifferent(I am reminded of, India can be
   different, if we are not indifferent.) and that is the step
   before taking action.

   Trying not to be indifferent,
   Yours,
   Aseem.

   --
   Aseem Asthana,
   239 A, New Swarg Mandir, Mhow, MP, India 453441


25th Jan 1999      Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com

Within just 30 days (December 25 to January 25) a handful of fanatics 
have been able to do more harms to Hinduism than any of those invaders 
(belonging to other religion) from the history. It shows that the 
callousness on our part can lead to end of civilized life in India. 

I am really shocked to know such cowardice and barbaric incident, 
taking place in Orissa. It is irony to note that one of the founders 
of the independent Orissa province Barrister Madhu Sudan Das was a 
Christian. I just fail to understand what prompts people to behave in 
such inhuman way! If this is the way to revive Hinduism in India I am 
really ashamed of being a Hindu and an Indian. It is the time for deep 
introspection for all conscious Indians.


25th Jan 1999      Harshal Jawale @it.com.pl

As an Indian, proud of Indian values, my head hangs down in shame ....
:-(

I was shell-shocked when I read this news on the 'net ......

harshal


26th Jan 1999      rsharma4 @ix.netcom.com

Hello all,

I feel it is extremely sad that the missionary in Orissa was burnt
along with his two young sons.  However, I think it is completely 
juvenile to throw all of the blame on Hindu organizations and conveniently
label these organizations as "fanatic."

First of all, a more serious issue needs to be addressed here.  Why is it
that so many missionaries, foreigners, are allowed to run amok in India,
forcibly converting through the guise of "medical help", "education', and other
pretenses?  We as Indians, as Hindus, should be helping our own people so that
they do not need any assistance from the zealous missionaries.  Organizations
like the RSS are not "fanatic" in the least.  Instead, they teach Hindus that
united we stand, and divided we fall.  The RSS in particular has many projects
in which the poor, the sick, and the starving are helped to get back on their feet-
why is it we never give them any credit?

I find it even more sad that the current atmosphere in India promotes an extreme
anti-Hindu sentiment, and that the upper-crust (the intelligentsia) falls for
Congress-sponsored propaganda by denouncing their own people.  When are Hindus and Indians as 
a whole going to wake up?  When our culture is completely decimated by Western Colonial
ideals?  When we no longer feel at home in the nation of our ancestors?  After missionaries
succeed in making us all Bible-toting Christians?

One last comment- to address Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's point:  I personally will never be ashamed
of being a Hindu and an Indian. 


27th Jan 1999      Kerry R Kinchen @stic.net

Hello everyone,

The reason that so many "missionaries, foreigners" are allowed to be in
India is because the Indian constitution allows them too. There is provision
for Missionary Visas and other types of Visas for "foreigners." To see the
application for the Missionary Visa go to:
http://www.indianembassy.org/consular/visa(instructions).htm
This is a clear example of the lawful nature of the Indian form of
government. On the other hand burning children alive who are out on a
"jungle camp" is an evil crime. The Indian government rightly and lawfully
condemns such action as murder. The government of India also recognizes that
one does not "forcibly convert" someone to Christianity. Such a decision is
a matter of free choice.
It is disturbing to me (a frequent tourist of India and a seemingly dreaded
"foreigner") to read comments such as the one posted above on the Inn.
How can one associate a man sacrificing a normal lifestyle for the duty of
taking care of lepers, with "running amok," and pretentiousness. Not many
people want to be near someone who has leperousy. I ask anyone reading
this...Do you?
Historical Christianity and it's manifestation of brotherly love is not a
"Western Colonial ideal." Jesus was a man from an area called Nazareth in
israel. One of Jesus' followers (Thomas) brought Christianity to India
almost two thousand years ago--long before the "West" as we now define it,
ever emerged. This is a fact that many Indians are proud of.
India also has it's share of Christian missionaries leaving and going out to
other countries and establishing converts. I know of three examples of
Churches started by Indians from Kerala in the Dallas/Fortworth, Texas area,
and have read of one Christian mission work in Colorado started by a tribal
from the Hmar tribe in Manipur named Rochunga Podaite.
It is nobel for one to be proud to be a Hindu and be an Indian. Why is it
not just as nobel for one to be proud to be a Christian and be an Indian?


Regards,
Kerry
[email protected]


27th Jan 1999      D.Haldar @pobox.com

I think you have lost the wood for the trees.
Here there is only one question to be addressed. is the savagery unleashed
in India during the last few months justified for the cause? I am a Hindu
but I do not endorse it at all and neither I will ever vote for BJP.
Hinduism has been an epitome of tolerance in the last millenium and that is
the reason it survived against the very harsh attempts of the Moslem
rulers. India is a free country unlike those Moslem ones. If you abide by
the laws of the land you are free to do and say what you like. I should
hate to be included with the puritanical societies of the Middle East and
Pakistan.
Let us face it. If Bjp Government was not at the centre these dastardly
people would never have attempted such deeds. As the President said Orissa
happening was a mostrous aberration and is eligible for inclusion amongst
the darkest deeds against mankind.
When the brits were here Christians enjoyed several privileges but inspite
of it they could not make a dent in the Indian society. If I want to become
Christian for any reason whatsoever or even Muslim or a jew there is no
power on earth to stop me.
Is the Sangh Parivar the only repository of Hindu faith? Hinduism is a way
of life and not a aggressive religiion that some are.
It is this Genghiz Khan tactics of Sangh parivar which is most upsetting.

D. Haldar


28th Jan 1999      Aseem Asthana @bom4.vsnl.net.in

Hello there everybody,

Mr. Sharma,  you  rightly pointed out that it is juvenile to
blame the Sangh Parivar for the Orrisa act without any probe
into to incident. But unfortunately you yourself could not
resist the same motivation and called it a 'Congress-sponsored
propaganda'. There is no proof for this either. 

> denouncing their own people

Are we really denouncing our own people? I don't have any reason
to believe so and I think that the bad state of affairs is not
because of our denouncing our own people but due to large scale
corruption in the Indian body politic and that is because
Indians as such are not very vocal in their complaints as such.
And that again is due to the fact that Indians are not very
sensitive to either what is being done to them or what they do.
This, I pointed out in an earlier post. 

> Why is it that so many missionaries, foreigners, are allowed
> to run amok in India, forcibly converting through the guise of
> "medical help", "education', and other pretenses?

The situation is very bad for the people of the villages in
India. There is not enough to eat, not live of anything for that
matter. In such circumstances it is understandable that any such
person, if offered a better life and enough food or medicine in
pain etc will adopt the religion of the provider. Arguably this
practice is not very right. But let us think, what is better,
tempting and provinding or just tempting (read making promises
by the politicians) and not providing even once? If a man gets a
better life as a Christian, well then why should we grudge him
that? What, anyway have we done for those, that we have any
right over them? 

Those people have very little reason to stay in India. It is
akin to the case where people leave a country, like many in
India do, for say US in search of better standards, money, life
style and other things. Similarly, a man  should be able to
change to a religion that he feels is better(in what ever
terms.) Who are we to decide which religion is better for them? 

> they teach Hindus that united we stand, and divided we fall

United we stand, against whom? Against the other people, the Non
Hindus of the country? Or some foreign element ? If it is
against the other religions of the country then we are in for
troubled times? And they teach the we should be united against
some foreign element then we will need all the people of this
country to fight  together. It is every ones duty and RIGHT to
defend the honour of this country. 

But to be fair to you, I must say that you probably did'nt what
and/or mean this sentence to be read with such a narrow
interpretation.

> (we) should be helping our own people so that they do not need
> any assistance from the zealous missionaries

But have we been? In the past fifty years things have not got
very much better? 


> We as Indians, as Hindus, . . . 

Again I must ask you that do you equate being an Indian with
being a Hindu and vice versa? It is only after I know your view
point that I can reply to this. 


> The RSS in particular has many projects in which the poor, the
> sick, and the starving are helped to get back on their feet-
> why is it we never give them any credit?

Personally, I have not heard about them. And I don't know for
what reasons. But to think of it, I had never even heard of Dr.
G. Steins before the ghastly incident.

But I won't think of doubting your word. And I must add that the
people who were and are being helped be the RSS to get back on
their feets will never think of conversion and they have found a
niche in Hinduism. For their help people from other religions
may embrace Hinduism.

> I find it even more sad that the current atmosphere in India
> promotes an extreme anti-Hindu sentiment

I very strongly disagree with you on this point. It is
unamaginable that there be a anti-hindu(ism) sentiment in India.
Majority of Indians are Hindus and sentiments don't go against
the majority. I wish you would explain more on this matter. 

>  When are Hindus and Indians as a whole going to wake up? When
>  our culture is completely decimated by Western Colonial
>  ideals?  When we no longer feel at home in the nation of our
>  ancestors?  After missionaries succeed in making us all
>  Bible-toting Christians?

These are powerful words that you have used. But you must
explain more for a meaningful discussion. For now all I will say
that if we are influenced by Western Colonial ideals, does this
not mean that they are more practical, and more suited to
everyday life. We have adopted many things from the westerns.
Their language, dresses, education and the like. What is it that
has had an undesirable effect on India. But I am sure that you
will explaing your point better. 

> to address Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's point:  I personally will
> never be ashamed of being a Hindu and an Indian.

I am sure that I should not Mr. Kedar does not need my advocacy
in any matter, all the same I think that Mr. Mahapatra did not
mean that he is ashamed of being an Indian or a Hindu, but just
that he was ashamed at such acts. No Indian can be proud of
this. 

I wish that you would reply to this post ASAP as a objective
debate is good for everyone. 

With regards,

Aseem. 

Final year SGSITS, Computer Science and Engg,
Indore.
Other Email IDs [email protected] [email protected]


28th Jan 1999      George Penner @indax.com

sorry for this long response, Innmates.  I could not in any conscience
let this go uncommented.

[email protected] wrote:

> First of all, a more serious issue needs to be addressed here. 
 
More serious than the slaughter of innocent children?  More serious than
the rapid decay of a social order and rule of law?  More serious than
hatred and violence in the name of God?
 
>Why is it
> that so many missionaries, foreigners, are allowed to run amok in India,
> forcibly converting through the guise of "medical help", "education', and other
> pretenses?  

"so many foreign missionaries"?  I doubt that the total number of
foreigners working in Christian organizations in India runs to more than
a few hundred, if that.  The government has for decades been very
restrictive in issuing visas to foreign mission workers, and the very
few that are here are usually involved in serious social work. 
Evangelical type foreign missionaries are very rare.  Most Christian
work is done by Indians.

And how are they "running amok"?  By running schools, and hospitals?  by
working in areas where the Indian government has done precious little? 
It would seem that this country could use a few more people "running
amok" in that manner.  the term, I suspect, is better used to describe
mob violence, and where have we seen that sort of behaviour recently? 
And not once, or twice, but so many times that the papers only cover the
most glaring incidents.  And the authorities shrug complacently.

and what, pray tell, is "forcible conversion".  does it mean a gun to
the head?  conversion is in the hearts and minds of humans.  It has
rarely ever been forced, and then only by massive societal violence and
upheaval.  and even in those conditions people hold out.  Pockets of
Jews in spain in the Middle ages withstood the horrors of the
Inquisition and worshipped secretly.  So, too did Christians in Japan
during the brutal Tokugawa times.  African voodoo type practices
survived in Haiti despite efforts to stamp them out.  there is a long
human history of people of many faiths holding true to what they held
dear.  There is also a long history of individuals changing religion due
to sincere and honest soul searching.  There are white sikhs, buddhists,
and hindus.  The Black Moslem community in America is very strong.  Were
these forced conversions too?  

We as Indians, as Hindus, should be helping our own people so that
> they do not need any assistance from the zealous missionaries.  

why not rephrase that as "we as Indians - as Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs,
Christians, Parsees, Jains, 
Buddhists, Animists, and others - should be helping our own people"?  Or
can you possibly hold that only Hindus can be Indian?  Sadly, many do,
and it will be the ruin of this country.  And from the rate of increase
in the atrocities recently against any minority group that ruin will
come sooner than many expect.  Just yesterday yet another massacre of
landless Dalits in Bihar.  There is no end in sight.

Organizations
> like the RSS are not "fanatic" in the least.  Instead, they teach Hindus that
> united we stand, and divided we fall.  The RSS in particular has many projects
> in which the poor, the sick, and the starving are helped to get back on their feet-
> why is it we never give them any credit?

The Ku Klux Klan also promotes unity - among a special group, whites -
but few would support their fanaticism or their fear mongering tactics. 
They also support good causes at times, but their extreme positions on
issues overshadows everything they do.
> 
> I find it even more sad that the current atmosphere in India promotes an extreme
> anti-Hindu sentiment, and that the upper-crust (the intelligentsia) falls for
> Congress-sponsored propaganda by denouncing their own people.  

And how do they do this?  By decrying the oppression of minorities and
the oppressed?  By being horrified when extremist groups claim to act in
their interests, or worse yet in the name of their religion?  By feeling
sadness, rage, or helplessness when the basic laws of the country are
shattered with impunity?

>When are Hindus and Indians as
> a whole going to wake up?  

Perhaps they are.  Perhaps you are on the wrong side of the public mind.

>When our culture is completely decimated by Western Colonial
> ideals?  

How is this happening?  The colonial powers have been gone for two
generations.  Other countries, possible more exploited by colonial rule,
have developed thriving economies and pride in their cultures.  (For
example, the brutal Japanese colonization of Korea which left the
country well behind India as recently as 1950) Can India still be
blaming the British?  Will the whining never end?  Until people accept
responsibility for what ever elements of their situation that they can
affect, they will remain slaves to helplessness and apathy.  History is
full of stories of societies that made conscious, positive choices and
grew.  And of societies that wallowed in self pity until they rotted.   

>When we no longer feel at home in the nation of our ancestors?  After missionaries
> succeed in making us all Bible-toting Christians?

You are probably quite safe there.  The national census has consistently
shown a decline in the percentage of Christians in India - never more
than 3% at the highest.  It sort of puts a lie to the idea of rampant
"forced conversions". 

> 
> One last comment- to address Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's point:  I personally will never be ashamed
> of being a Hindu and an Indian.

I imagine that there are a considerable number of Indians (many of whom
are Hindus) that are quite ashamed, not of being either Indian or Hindu,
but of actions and events supposedly taken in their names which they
completely and utterly disown. 

George Penner


28th Jan 1999      PK Joseph @gto.net.om

If the RSS are not fanatics why did they beaten up 3 youths in Calicut
yesterday for attending a prayer meeting held in a fellow Christian's home.
The people arrested are all RSS members.

As for the structure there are different groups for all atrocities and then
the others disclaim the responsibility. The truth is that they are worried
that the Congress will come back to power and the best way to stop that is
to project Sonia Gandhi as Christian.

The modus operandi is very simple. Attack minorities using Goondas from far
away places. The Police will arrest the local Hindu people. The Bajrang Dal
or RSS will help them to get them out and fight their cases. By this way
they will have these innocent people's support to their rescuers.

If the congress is coming back to power it is not going to be better than
the present government and if the present Gov.. loses the power it is only
because of their own failures.

Your statement justifies the brutal killing of a man came  all the way from
Australia and helping the lepers of Orissa for 30 years. India is not a
better place than Australia that he found luxuaries of Orissa to keep him
there for 30 years.

The game is to retain the power and we people get carried away by the
politicians.

Joseph.


28th Jan 1999      AJAY0PAUL @aol.com

Hey guys,
              Someone wrote a sentence regarding these missionaries converting
the poor and the low-caste Indians.  Well, if I was a low caste person, I too
would convert to being a Christian or Muslim or any thing else just so that I
get treated as an equal.

And honestly, most of the converts remain Hindu, they 'convert' for the basic
needs that all humans require -- food, respect, and a sense of worth.

God, I hope that this miserable government and it's Mafia tactics don't turn
India into what Pakistan is turning into.

Ajay


28th Jan 1999      Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com

>I feel it is extremely sad that the missionary in Orissa was burnt
>along with his two young sons.  However, I think it is completely 
>juvenile to throw all of the blame on Hindu organizations and conveniently
>label these organizations as "fanatic."

I think, "fanatic" is the right term for those who committed such 
heinous crime in the name of religion. Whichever organization encourages 
such barbaric activities it would obviously termed "fanatic". No body 
will label Hindu organizations such as Ramakrishna Mission, Divine Life 
Society as fanatic. When we expect the individuals to be civilized for a 
humane society, how can we ignore about the uncivilized organizations 
those who want to take the country and people to the Stone Age? 

Imagine if one of ISKON guru from India get killed with his two young 
sons under the identical condition (like recent Orissa incident) in some 
western country for propagating Krishna consciousness! When it makes us 
happy to know some devotees from America celebrating Rath Yatra of Lord 
Jagannath in an American city, why can’t we take propagation of other 
religions in our country in the same spirit! 

>First of all, a more serious issue needs to be addressed here.  Why is 
>it that so many missionaries, foreigners, are allowed to run amok in 
>India, forcibly converting through the guise of "medical help", "education', 
>and other pretenses?  We as Indians, as Hindus, should be helping our own people 
>so that they do not need any assistance from the zealous missionaries.  
>Organizations like the RSS are not "fanatic" in the least.  Instead, they teach 
>Hindus that united we stand, and divided we fall.  The RSS in particular has many 
>projects in which the poor, the sick, and the starving are helped to get back on 
>their feet- why is it we never give them any credit?


The necessity of religion for spirit can be compared with medicine for 
the body. Now alternate medicines are getting popular in many places 
including India. You may be aware these days people from far away places 
are coming to Kerala and Hyderabad seeking Indian traditional healing of 
chronic diseases irrespective of their religion or nationality. Because 
they want to get cured, they want to live a healthy life. When a 
conscious individual seeks to change religious faith she/he also does it 
with higher expectation of spiritual realization. Well, the problem is 
that of forcible conversion (not at the gunpoint I suppose!). We upper 
caste Hindus still carry on depriving the so called low caste people in 
our rural areas from leading a respectable life. Should not we feel 
ashamed as Hindus with the incidents such as brutal killing of low caste 
villagers in Bihar recently! Should we blame than missionaries for 
converting such unfortunate Hindus! Why not organizations such as RSS 
can take it as a mission to abolish evil practice of caste system. Why 
not they go to tribal areas and backward rural areas to open new schools 
in stead of restricting their activities only in urban area (such as 
Sisumandirs). I wonder if economic viability is a criterion behind such 
activities. I would appreciate if somebody can give a brief account of 
the significant long-term achievements (I am aware they are involved in 
some voluntary activities during natural disasters like many other 
people or organizations) of RSS, except spreading cynical, outdated 
opinion about false Hindu pride. 

>I find it even more sad that the current atmosphere in India promotes 
>an extreme anti-Hindu sentiment, and that the upper-crust (the intelligentsia) 
>falls for Congress-sponsored propaganda by denouncing their own people.  When are 
>Hindus and Indians as a whole going to wake up?  When our culture is completely decimated by 
>Western Colonial ideals?  When we no longer feel at home in the nation of our ancestors?  
>After missionaries succeed in making us all Bible-toting Christians?

When Indian culture could not be decimated during hundreds of years 
Islamic and Christian rules, how can it be decimated by just a handful 
of missionaries! Moreover, I consider culture and religious faith are 
two different things. Many people belonging to other religious faith 
follow Indian culture. I sincerely believe everybody should be exposed 
to all religious scriptures at the early phase of life before one 
decides his religious faith. I know it may sound utopian to many. But 
many of our proud Hindus never read even Hindu religious scriptures (of 
course watching soap opera of the epics on TV screen is a different 
thing).


>One last comment- to address Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's point:  I personally 
>will never be ashamed of being a Hindu and an Indian. 

I respect the comment. But anybody, who has sense of shame, he/she 
should feel ashamed of such barbaric incidents taking place in the name 
of protecting religion, at least as a living human being. 


28th Jan 1999      divya sharma @hotmail.com

hi everybody..

>>There is not enough to eat, not live of anything for that
matter. In such circumstances it is understandable that any such
person, if offered a better life and enough food or medicine in
pain etc will adopt the religion of the provider.<< Well i don't agree with this statement by Aseem. Why a service provider has to ask something in return for his service.That means they are taking undue advantage of their money power..>>>>If they have real heart to serve people they
can do by providing the services without asking for a change
in religion or anything for that matters.

divya


28th Jan 1999      divya sharma @hotmail.com

hi everybody


>>>>a man  should be able tochange to a religion that he feels is 
better<<<< Can anybody tell me what areligion means????people allover are talking about as if it's a "COMMODITY"..that u don't like u u opt for a better "COMMODITY". Religion is a culture which we have build and inherited from our ancestors...and we should be proud of it. And IF one thinks his religion is not "BETTER" than others then,,,,,he must "MAKE IT BETTER" rather than opting other religion or culture. P.S : INDIA has a HINDU religion or "CULTURE",,,,,we really won't opt for western culture or arab culture. Our ancestors "ARYANS" and "Dravidians" built it with such pain and today people want to opt other culture ...that's something to think about. divya 


28th Jan 1999      Boby_Kurian @maaln.satyam.net.in

Hi Joseph and others out there,

The BJP and the RSS have claimed that the incident near Calicut is a
conspiracy and the case booked against seven RSS guys is a foisted one.

Today morning I talked to O Rajagopal, BJP Deputy Leader in Rajya Sabha,
who hails from Kerala.
He had a very interesting observation. He said the incident near Calicut
happened when only after a few over-zealous Christians from South Kerala
attempted conversions in the locality. And the situation was blown out of
proportion only after other political parties intervened, he added.

Blaming the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency, America)  for fermenting
trouble, he said Vatican was falling prey to an international campaign to
malign the right wing BJP. The lessons of the famous Liberation Struggle,
which brought down the first  democratically elected Marxist government of
EMS Namboothiripad in 1959, should not be forgotten. The CIA had diverted
funds to India through the Church to throw Communism out of India. The same
forces were playing havoc at the national level now, he said.

He quoted a former U.S. Amabassador to India who later said that CIA and
Vatican were involved in bringing down the E.M.S ministry. In fact, the
Ambassador also named a few Congress leaders (like Vayalar Ravi) from
Kerala who received funds to lead the upheaval against the Marxists.

Another interesting point was that BJP is not of the opinion that
Christians, all of them, should be held responsible for the present
communal unrest. The clash was between over-zealous neo-converts (or first
generation Christians) and the groups targetted for conversion. The
traditional Christians have never brought disrepute to Christianity by
indulging in forced conversions, Rajagopal said. That's why Christians in
Kerala have remained away from controversies, he added.

The views expressed above are that of a senior BJP leader, who is expected
to be inducted into the Union Cabinet in the next expansion. I thought it
should be interesting, especially BJP's distinction between traditional
Christians and neo-converts, to those who are closely following the recent
spurt in communal behaviour.

regards,


28th Jan 1999      Wilfred Babbili @nctcog.dst.tx.us

Dear Inn friends and learned netizens,

I am engrossed at the current debate on communal situation in India.
Amidst all the technological revolution and other dizzying changes in
the way we all live our lives as part of an inter-connected world, the
challenges of overcoming the raw emanations of communal bigotry and
religious hatred seem to be following us into the next century.  To be
sure, very significant progress has been made on almost all other fronts
of human endeavor.

As a recent immigrant who has been blessed by the graciousness, business
opportunities, global breadth and hospitality of Americans, I have cause
to be thankful for benefiting from the vision and peaceful soldiering of
this great country - that seeks to create an atmosphere which fosters
harmony and acceptance of all unique talents that emanate from diverse
origins.  It is with this frame of mind I'll try to share my thought
with you all.

I do not intend to take side in this on-going debate but let me share
with you that not every "foriegner" is a Christian missionary.  I was in
Hyderabad city last summer along with five other Americans to build a
day-care centre for the children of a backward locality.  I would like
to stress this point because the criterion to help is purely economical
and nothing else. These Americans represented an organization that is
involved in social work in many countries and at no time do they harp on
their religious stance.  Infact what I learned through this experience
was that social work is actually totally devoid of religious
conotations.  I too earlier represented the same stereotyped mind-set as
some of you seem to be expressing.

And in this vein, I may as well share with you that not all foriegners
come to India as missionaries all the time.  There are several other
countries that need help, some of the worst being Romania, Haiti, and
Peru; and even as we discuss there are thousands of missionaries working
selflessly everywhere to make the world a better place to live.  I am
humbled to say that for spring vacation in the US starting from march
6th through march 13th we will be building a school at Puerto Prince in
Haiti. Again this is a well planned social work that demands loss of
personal time and money and absolutely not for "converting people's
faith".

It is also better to shed some light on the many westerners who have
adopted the accalimed paths of the Hindu religion.  Can we dare say that
they have been forcibly converted.  No, not at all and they represent a
people who have made their personal choices toward God and religion.  So
then why, even with a fundamental right to preach, profess, and
propogate any religion of one's own choice, the Christians are tainted
for their approaches?  I fail to understand.

Actually a new vision and efforts must  be made that utilizes
technological tools, that allows for networking personal descipline, and
one that boosts religious and communal reorientation inorder to fight
all forms of intollerance and discrimination even as we enter the 21st
century.  Why?  We must all remember the fact that there are more
sophisticated forms of discrimination and intollerance apart from those
that arise out of mere religious apathy.  To understand this we must
first fight for, and rise above a religion-blind society.

It is difficult to make intellectual arguments for a religion-blind
society because multi-religion and secular societies will have their
antagonistic components.  However a begining can at least be made where
a human being is judged not on the basis of his/her religion but rather
be judged by the content of his/her character. My call to Inn friends is
atleast we must make a begining by speaking less divisively and avoiding
the staccato of angry verbal exchanges that perhaps contributed to the
situation in Gujarat, Orissa, and as I learn today, Calicut.  Such
exchanges merely serve the ulterior purposes of some political parties
and tear through the peaceful environment.  We must all appreciate the
value of communal harmony and not be content with just toleration of one
another's religion.

I am sure that when the Jews (from holocaust) and Africans (from
slavery) could shatter physical and psychological "iron curtains" and
reach out to people with whome they strongly disaggreed earlier, so too
can Indians learn to be forgiving, remain noble, foster harmony and be
fair-minded in their daily lives.  I wish our Inn friends can make the
small difference inorder to get going in this direction.

As regards the downtrodden and the tribal folk of our country, we must
not rest by just assuring equality but till that time when there is an
equality of outcome as well.  The vision that I believe in would deal
with another increasing, yet related, challenge - specifically the
hordes of unemployed (soon completely umemployable in the computer
market).  There is a direct connection between these dispirited youths
and the violence in the society.  All communities alike should have the
responsibility to bring a number of our youth to zones of educational
excellence and fulfilling economic activity where they will know, and
can see, that they have a stake in the emerging order of things. Call it
empowerment, if you may.

Finally, travails of our time cannot be belittled as casual and ignorant
self-inflicted wounds.  Such incidents should help us to rise to the
challenge of the day and charting an intellectual and visionary road map
for tommorrow.  The biggest lesson yet to learn:  India must now cut its
losses and redefine its course for the soon-to-come 21st century.  Many
on this side of the world believe that India will be a major player.
Indians cannot be naive to the fact that they must be courageous and
unwavering in order to fulfill their destiny.  Keeping the communities'
strategic interests as paramount, will be the first step in this
direction I suppose.

For all it's worth, these times and the 21st century truly requires
people with a King-size vision, temperament and courage.  I wish us all
the very same.  And thanks for your patience and time.

Willie Babbili

PS:  Thankyou Vani for providing an excellent platform for ventilating
our opinions.  Ever in your service.

WB


29th Jan 1999      Customer Care Centre @bom2.vsnl.net.in

Dear Mr Sharma/Aseem Asthana and others,

Its indeed a deplorable incident in Orissa and needs unqualified
condemnation by one and all. 

However, mere emotional outbursts both as a reaction or retaliation will
not explain the far deeper issues that confront us, both as a nation and
as a multi racial society.

India has several tracts of underdevelopment in the geographical stretches
and several communities in abject poverty,underdevelopment,illiteracy and
superstition. Tribal India in Orissa,MP,Bihar is really unimaginably
backward. The tribals are the most neglected both as human beings and as
communities. Kalhandi Dist( Orissa), Bastar Dist are examples of such
backwardness. Superstition and illiteracy resulting in human sacrifices,
local witch magic as treatment to medical illnesses are yet prevalent and
the communities are moving from generation to generation and are yet not
liberated from the basic ills of such  undeveloped societies.

The government with all the best intentions of development and with the
available institutions such as Girijan Coop Societies is doing the utmost
with all limitations of funds, infrastructure and above all the political
will to do the needful. Its in this context and direction, the NGOs have
found the much needed relevence to support and at times even reinforce the
governmental efforts. With several central and state governments losing
sight and control of such NGOs, the NGOs have overtime grown into an
institution by themselves. Funding them were the foreign agencies with
their own agendas and strings attached. There are several hues and cries
of NGOs with various colors and commitments. The recent killing of a
popular volunteer of an NGO in Assam by the militants is unnoticed by
several who raise their protest to the Australian missionary's murder in
Orissa. If the incident in Orissa is a result of the provocation of of the
NGO to the militants in the area, the unfortunate murder of the Australian
and his children is the result of the upsurge of religious intolerance or
conflict.

There are 3 reasons for the recent social and religous unrest mostly being
reflected in rural and tribal India :

1. Global reason : Islam and Christianity are in a covert war for
supremacy in the next millinium. Both believe that the future leadership
of the world populations will be on the minds of men and not over
territories. Bosnia,fragmentation of former USSR,most civil wars in Africa
republics,internal strife in Indonesia are reflections of such a conflict.
However, the Asian replublics such as India,Malaysia are yet not ripe for
such an open conflict between the 2 major world religions. Hinduism with a
strong and a formidable presence in India is a discomfort to both the
world religions. While Islamic onslaught is thru external forces the
Christian penetration is thru internal means. However both the world
religions are making unabashed attempts to disrupt the religous and social
fabric of India. The change of the religious equilibrium in Kerala, North
East and now tribal areas in India are the manifestations of such activism
of minority religions in India. Its afterall, the local populations and
the brotherhood of longlasting relations that will suffer because of the
ideological global war of a different kind. 

As a proponent of India for Indians irrespective of religious beliefs and
cultural preferences, its imperitive for Indian non Hindu religious
leaders to adapt and adopt to Indian ethos and not seek or succumb to
external influences or pressures. This in turn will not upset the majority
community in India and India will continue to be an ideal country for
secularism.

2. Define and clarify the role of NGOs in India :

Social upliftment/community service are welcome by all and every NGOs with
positive intentions. However, religious and or cultural change as a
mission should be curtailed in practise by the Government. India has to
wake up and evaluate the needs of the tribal societies and channelise the
efforts and resources to insulate them from negative conflicts which will
harm the tribals directly and our national integrity as a result.


3. Foreign Funds for religious/cultural/social upliftment purposes :

Its time the Government of India takes a hard look at the flow and
direction of foreign funds in to the country. Either as grants,aid or soft
loans, we need to closely evaluate the beneficiaries and also the end
results of such funds as much as monitor the receipients of such funds on
behalf of the foreign principals. Im sure this will reveal much more than
what is generally perceived. 

The role of modern India is to insulate social conflicts and harness the
strengths of all religions. The role of the government is to be a tough
policemen to reach out against any religious outrage and yet protect the
rights and priveleges of both the majority and minority religions.

Imagine India in the next millinium with the combined services of the
excellent convent schools run by the Christian nuns and priests, the
dedication and grit of Ramakrishna Mission, the tolerance and humility
exemplified by the Brahma Kumaris, the social commitment of Satya Sai
Mission, the vibrancy of the Nirankaris, the sincerity of Aga Khan
missions, the help to the downtrodden by the Theresa Mission and with
millions of Indians involved in upliftment of India as a country and
Indians as a community - a multi facted one and not fragmented.   

Lets dedicate to a much wider cause of making India an example of
secularism and tolerance.

Ramkumar


28th Jan 1999      Aditya, the Hindu Skepti�

On 28 Jan 99,  George Penner wrote:

> sorry for this long response, Innmates.  I could not in any conscience
> let this go uncommented.

While I share the disgust at the dastardly acts, let us not rush to
judgement and try to blame some one before we have all the evidence.

If history is any indication, most such act are committed by a very few
deranged people and it is unwise to blame any one organization. I recall
the immediate reaction of people in the wake of Oklahoma bombing to blame
the arab terrorists. Even MG Gandhi was killed by a very small group of
people who belonged to the same religion that Gandhi did.


29th Jan 1999      rajshekhar roy @hotmail.com

Hello everybody ,

As someone said we are indeed missing the wood for the trees. Any person 
in his right mind would condemn what happened in Orissa. However to 
extrapolate this into saying that this is the fault of the BJP is really 
taking the cake.

Irrespective of how many of us hate it , the fact remains that they have 
the authority to govern for 5 years and given our experience of the last 
50 years they have been as bad or as good depending on your perspective.

The work of the Christian missionaries is laudable but when they try to 
induce people to convert it cannot be supported.It is because we are a 
free and secular country that we have allowed people of all faiths to 
practise and preach their religion without any restrictions.
Hindu tolerance is being seen as a sign of weakness and the more 
strident face of Hinduism is in exhibit for that very reason.

People who comment on the various Hindu organizations are blindly 
following the agenda set by the fundamentalists. Contrary to popular 
belief the hindus are the only truly secular community. We read in a 
mail that a person was debarred from an employment opportunity as she 
chose to wear a bindi. Is this an example of secularism ? Or is it 
secular to force people to read the Bible ? We all know how secular the 
muslim countries are so I am not getting into it.

I am proud to be a hindu and an Indian . However I am ashamed when I see 
that the Indian Muslims mourn the loss of Pakistan to India. That is 
exactly how patriotic they are. And we have a captain who has been at 
the helm for 6 years and has thrashed Pakistan several times despite 
belonging to the muslim community. It is really sad that the muslims 
cannot emulate his excellent example.

It is only when the minorities will be patriotic and recognize hinduism 
as the dominant religion that we will have enduring peace. The word 
secularism is nothing but a ploy to browbeat hindus into accepting that 
they should be constantly in fear in their own country.

For people wanting to convert to other religions the field is wide open. 
But forcing people to convert will give rise to more such untoward and 
horrific incidents.

Thanks


29th Jan 1999      Krishnan J iyer @bcmfax.net

>  it is unwise to blame any one organization.

blaming would not help. Don't we need to see why do we 
treat humans as "untouchables" in ONE particular religion?

Mahatma admires the ability of Buddha to expand love to all 
living beings and here we are..... killing those who spent their 
life time in treating humans as humans. 

Fanatics and the skeptics should be put in proper place and 
they don't deserve what they are. I guess this will reflect in 
the coming elections, strongly.

Krish - 


29th Jan 1999      Pia Promina DasGupta Barve @giascl01.vsnl.net.in

Hi,
There are many comments on the issue of christian missionaries,
conversions etc...... I'd like to share me experiences and views.
1. I studied in a missionary school where I received the finest education
and character values, which I hope I have passed on to the next
generation.

2. As a little girl, I was so impressed with the whole ceromony of "first
communion" I insisted on becoming a catholic.  In school, I wanted to
attend the religious class. The nuns sent for my maother and told her they
would not allow this and she should explain to me that I am not a catholic
... my mother, requested the school to allow me to attend the classes.
She said."she'll get fed up in a week's time and quit on her own".  That
is exactly what happened.

3. As a school senior, our class protested the teaching of Christian
scriptures only.  We wanted religious teachings of all religions of inida.
Our suggestion was accepted.  And I am proud to say that even today the
school has universal prayer meetings.

4.  On missioneries .... we have temples in christian countries, UK, USA,
Australia, Gremany... We have temples in Bangla Desh and Pakistan.  
So many christians have turned to OSHO and "Hare Ram". The Beatles turned
to Maharshi..Vivekananda lectured in Chicago to at the Unitarian Church
Congress...  

What is right and what is wrong ?  Are we trying  our hand at conversion..

Pia.


29th Jan 1999      CUSTOMER CARE CENTRE @bom2.vsnl.net.in

On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 [email protected] wrote:
> Hey guys,
> Well, if I was a low caste person, I too
> would convert to being a Christian or Muslim or any thing else just so that I
> get treated as an equal.... they 'convert' for the basic
> needs that all humans require -- food, respect, and a sense of worth.
> Ajay
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Ajay,

Before I begin, I wish to state that I mean no personal offence to you and
your beliefs.

Your reaction, to say the least is simply immature,simplistic and very
juvenile.

Religion.. is a far more than food,shelter and clothing. It reflects
culture, upbringing,a defined value system,a definition of evolution... 

Im sure U need a lot of reading and understanding to do to comment and
conclude on religion let alone conversion of faiths.

For your information and starters, it would benefit you to note the
following: 

Man feels himself rather powerless. There are 3 things that cause him
fear. One, is what Nature can do to him. Fear of lightning, consequences
of an earthquake are to be experienced to be believed. Another reason for
fear is what other men can do - killings in war (and nowadays even in
peace times and even to peace loving men). And the third, has a great deal 
to do with religion.,is what his own violent passions may lead him to do-
things which he knows in a calm moment he would regret having done. For
that reason, most people have a great deal of fear in their lives and
religion helps them to be not frightened by those fears.

There are several milestones in evolution of man and mankind to which
religion has contributed in all societies. Religion caused the Egyptian
priests to fix the calender and to note the occurence of eclipses so well
that in times they were able to predict them. The discovery of "zero'  
as the beginning of universe, astrology,astronomy,medicine,statecraft
and several subjects have their origins in religion.

Remember, that no matter what may happen, religion is to mankind as water
is to a fish. 

Bye

Ramkumar


1st Feb 1999      vijay @wmi.co.in

There has been so much talk and written word on secularism and religious
conversions. I feel we have not understood the meaning and use of word
secular. I suggest following for the country to follow. No religion should
be allowed except in the four walls of homes, mandirs,masjids ,churches and
gurudwaras, Nothing to be on streets, public places or outside the walls,not
even noise pollution by use of loud speakers.No conversions or preaching for
conversions unless all religions are equality exposed like a departmental
store. You can get what you choose from all that is available in the world.
No government sponsored ceremonies, or attendance by
government officials in that capacity. No funding . I feel Muslims should
have shariat as law for their crimes , Christians their own law
andJews,Sikhs,Hindus all should have their own courts to try their people
their own religion wants. That will be true democracy, true secularism, true
noninterference in religious matters. and all will be confined to their own
four walls. How can riots or killings can take place then?


30th Jan 1999      [email protected]

Hello All,

In reference to Mr.  Wilfred Babbili's comments:

Yes, I agree with you.  I feel that communal violence is to be abhorred
and not tolerated.  However, I cannot completely agree with the common 
assertion that Hindus must be "tolerant" at the expense of our lives
 just because our religion supposedly says so.  This is completely false.  In
fact it is our very religion that says that unjustice must be destroyed at all 
costs, and that it is our very duty to uphold Dharma and protect the weak when
we are in positions of power.  Why is it so difficult to see that when missionaries
take advantage of the weak and the disadvantaged in our society that this is 
NOT a normal conversion?

The difference between you and I accepting Christianity and an impoverished tribal
in Orissa doing the same is that you and I are in an economic position 
where we do not face pressure to sacrifice our culture for money, food, clothing,
and shelter.  We can intellectually rationalize whether Christianity has something better to 
offer us in terms of spirituality.  Unforunately, the disadvantaged in our society have to be 
concerned with immediate needs for survival.

To correct any misunderstandings:  I did not once state that all foreigners are "evil",
nor did I say that they are all missionaries.  My only point was that missionaries in India are 
heavily aided and abetted by the almighty dollar (read: foreign.)  And to respond to Mr.  Kedar 
Mahapatra's analogy between the foreign missionary in India and the ISCKON guru in America, this 
is an inappropriate comparison.  Hare Krishnas in America are not supported by the kind of money 
that is pumped to fuel conversions in India and other poor countries.  Hare Krishnas do not 
bribe poor Americans with promises of health care, food, and clothing if they convert to Krishna 
Consciousness.  Lastly, the conversion of Hindus in India and the conversion of Christians in 
America are two entirely separate matters:  Hinduism is the belief system INDIGENOUS to India, 
whereas Christianity is the religion that colonized America, and is NOT indigenous to it.

Here is a quote by Swami Vivekananda, a most respected guru in the Hindu tradition.  I think it 
might prove interesting to some of us:

     "If all India stands up, and takes all the mud that is at the bottom of the Indian 
      Ocean and throws it up against the Western countries, it will not be doing an                   
      infinitesimal part of that which you are doing to us..." "It is not true that I am
      against any religion.  It is equally untrue that I am hostile to the Christian
      missionaries in India.  But I protest against certain of their methods of raising 
      money in America.  What is meant by those pictures in the school-books for children
      where the Hindu mother is painted throwing her children to crocodiles in the Ganga?
      The mother is black, but the baby is painted white, to arouse more sympathy, and
      get more money.  What is meant by those pictures which paint a man burning his wife 
      at a stake with his own hands, so that she may become a ghost and torment the husband's
      enemy?  What is meant by the pictures of huge cars crushing over human beings?  The 
      other day a book was published for children in this country (America), where one of
      these gentlemem tells a narrative of his visit to Calcutta.  He says he saw a car 
      running over fanatics in the streets of Calcutta.  I have heard one of these gentlemen 
      preach in Memphis that in every village of India there is a pond full of the bones
      of little babies.  What have the Hindus done to these disciples of Christ that every
      Christian child is taught to call the Hindus 'vile', and 'wretches', and the most
      horrible devils on earth?  Part of the Sunday school education for children here consists
      in teaching them to hate everybody who is not a Christian, and the Hindus especially, 
      so that, from their very childhood they may subscribe their pennies to the missions...
      Look again at the books published in Madras against the Hindu religion.  If a Hindu 
      writes one such line against the Christian religion, the missionaries will cry fire
      and vengeance."
      -Complete Works, Volume 4, pp. 344-5.

And I'm sorry to say that much of this nonsense still goes on.  Yes, I've been to Sunday school,
and I've seen what they say about other religions.  Yes, I've heard Pat Robertson speak, urging
all Christians to pump money into missionary efforts in India, as India is  "a sea of ignorance" 
and within every Hindu "there is a Christian crying for help."  So please don't try to tell me 
that I am talking out of my head; I've seen and read this stuff first-hand. 

I am willing to elaborate on every point I've made.  The pseudo-secularists on this mailing list 
can try to take apart my argument bit by bit, if they wish to try.  I hope this discussion is 
fruitful for all of us and we all learn something in the process. 

Look forward to hearing your responses,
Vasant Sharma. 


31st Jan 1999      [email protected]

Hello all, here is an extremely relevant article by Dushyant Vishwanathan, of UC Irvine.  Read 
it carefully, as it may make you think.  Since we are all debating this incident, perhaps
we should better acquaint ourselves with the details.
-Vasant Sharma
P.S.  If any one would like to respond to Dushyant, please do so...I will froward
any and all responses regarding this to him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any of you "secularists" or "marxists" or anyone else condemning the RSS
and other dharmin groups for the Christian violence, read this carefully,
then we'll talk. And I'd like to hear if anyone who calls themselves an
Indian would find fault in the killing of that Australian proselytizer.
You really should stop reading what the western media has to say about
Hinduism and Indian affairs.

dushyant
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(From a Oriya Weekly from Cuttack, Orissa, on Jan 26, 1999.)

Australian Father Burnt Alive: Spot Report from Manoharpur


Manoharpur is a remote village of Keonjhar district, Odisha which is 100
kms from district headquarter Keonjhargarh, 46 kms from the
sub-divisional head quarter Anandapur.  It is very poorly communicated.
It is border village of both Mayurbhanj and Keonjhar district.  These
two sister districts were ruled by Bhanja dynasty, having native tribes
of Bhuyans, Santhals and Majhis.  These tribes are very much cultured
and disciplined.  Several times they revolted against injustice and
foreign rule.  They pray God in the name of nature, plants and soil
(Motherland) & natural resources are plenty till today.  Always these
tribes think themselves as the kingmaker and saviour of royal dynasty.

Graham Stewart Steins
Australian father Graham Steins came to Odisha in Jan 1965.  He
established his centre at Baripada the dist.  Head quarter of
Mayurbhanj, famous as a cultured town of mother Odisha.  Graham started
his missionary work through Evangelical Mission, Baptist Church (at
Baripada), World Vision of India with a coverage of leprosy centre at
Baripada which is not at all a leprosy prone area.  In 1980 he
established a missionary Church (Thatched house) at Manoharpur (Kacha
Sahi) about 150 kms from Baripada, and recently VRO and NGO is suspected
to be working for conversion.  His family consisted of Mr.  Graham
Stewart Steins (55), his wife-Glades Steins (45), daughter Easter (13),
son Philips Steins (12) & Timoti Steins (9).  Though Steins family have
been staying here since last 34 years they did not take the citizenship
of India.  Every time administration was in difficult position to deal
him as he stayed in Mayurbhanj dist, but operating in Keonjhar district.

Conversion Started
The Baripada Mission Church leader is Nimain Hansda.  His sister got
married to Shyam Marandi of Manoharpur and became Martha Marandi.
Through her Graham started converting Hindu Santhals (tribe) in
Manoharpur and adjacent area.  Latest position of converted Santhals and
Kolha in that area - (which was 100% non-Christian in 1980):
Manoharpur - 24 families, Sanakusapada - 6, Tulasibani - 15, Baniajodi -
3, Palabani - 3, Pathaveda - 5.  Now 56 families were converted at a
time.

Conversion Process
Contact persons gather them in Jungle Camp for 3-4 days, allow all young
girls & boys to stay together, perform marriages, preach Bible, show
video and audio films of Jesus Christ and finally convert them through
Duban.

This years' Jungle Camp (Mela)
This year Graham Steins organised Jungle camp from Jan 20 to 24th,
1999.  Everyday there was a feast of meat and rice with local alcoholic
preparation Handia.  Massive drive of meetings and showing of films were
conducted for 3 to 4 days.  400 people were targeted to be converted on
24th Jan.  56 families were converted on 22nd.  Every thing was under
the leadership of Graham Stewart Steins and his battalion of 10
preachers from Cuttack and Baripada.

Tension
Due to the activities of Graham there was tension from 1981.  The then
collector Fanibhushan Dash reported concern over conversion and rising
tension among Santhals.  Every year tribes perform Maker Sankranti (Jan
14) and Raja Sankranti (Jun 14-16) with pump and ceremony.  But every
year this was being opposed by converted Christians by performing
ploughing etc.,  which is a act of sin in those Sankranti as per their
tradition.  This year also that happened.  So administration was
compelled since 10-15 years to deploy police force during those Hindu
functions in that locality every year.

Leadership
And therefore self declared leadership was developed in each episode of
group clashes (Regd.  FIR, cases are there in every year against each
other) between converted and non-converted Santhals and Kolhas.  Which
Dara Singh assumed leadership of Santhals, Shyam Sundar Marandi, Ragadi
Sara and youngster Salman Marandi took the leadership of Santhal
Christians.

Politics
This area is a traditional stronghold of Congress.  Two eminent
ministers Sri Jaydev Jena (Mass Education) and Niranjan Pattnaik
(Industry & Mines) belong to the same sub-division Anandpur, in this J.
B.  Pattnaik ministry.  Dara Singh having many warrants against him in
police stations of the district was still active under the political
safe-arm of this ministers, which is a known fact.  This fact is going
to be covered in the name of Bajrang Dal, conspired by the congress
ministry, by police DGP's statement.  Madhavrao Scindia instigated the
villagers to tell the name of Bajrang Dal.  He also assured the backing
of congress during his recent tour of the affected area.  During last
four years almost all disturbances of Keonjhar district is only because
of the two infighting groups of the ruling party led by two ministers,
is an open secret.  For reference, Mr Niranjan Pattnaik happens to be a
close relative of the chief minister Mr Janaki Ballava Pattnaik and Mr
Jaydev Jena belongs to the camp deputy Chief Minister, Basanta Biswal.

That dreadful Night:
During the third week of Jan 1999, Graham Steins and his 10 preachers,
including Australian Gilbert Venj, two lectures from Cuttack namely
Subhankar Ghosh and Rajendra Swain, and others from Baripada, conducted
a massive tour and propaganda in that area, conducting village meetings,
showing films regarding Jesus Christ, and mobilising many people to be
converted.  It resulted an undercurrent of protest and tension among the
Santhals.  The usual process of conversion the 'jungle camp' started
from 20th inside the temporary thatched house constructed specially for
the converts.  In the midday of 22nd, the conversion of 56 families and
the declaration of further target of converting 200 camp mates on 24th
spread fire of revolt among the Santhals very rapidly in many adjacent
villages.  Many angry Santhals and Kolhas gathered in that area in the
midnight as a suo motto eruption of their anger of last 18 years, when
the jungle camp was sleeping.  The angry mob targeted the vehicles
ORM-1208 and ORM-952, which carried the preachers conducting the massive
tour, started damaging them.  By this time Graham, who was sleeping
inside ORM-1208, covered with bundles of dry straw, woke up and
threatened the mob with pistol firing.  Seeing the pistol the mob took
it as a challenge and attacked him with arrow and finally burnt the
vehicle.  The dry bundles of straw made it easy to burn the vehicle and
difficult for Graham Steins to come out with his two sons, resulting the
fearful death of all of them.


And many questions:
1- Whether the organisers of Jungle camp in formed the authority about
the camp or not?
2- Jungle camp going on and no police protection, why?
3- Police deployment in every Raja Sankranti and Makar Sankranti but why
not during the jungle camp
4- Only Graham was attacked and not the church or the other Christians,
why?
5- No local leader and jungle camp mates came for rescue?
6- Why the mob was not opposed?
7- Where the other preachers were, doing what?
8- As per the Christians 20 to 80 persons came to attack, which can be
countered easily by the jungle camp mates, which did not happen, why?
9- Why only ORM-1208 was covered with dray straw?
10- The driver of other vehicle ORM-952 not inside, why?
11- If people left for jungles (as per Christians) and others were
inside their closed house, then why the mob did not attack anybody
having a free hand for that?
12- Nobody on behalf of the Christian rushed to the police station, why?

13- Why police reached the spot the next day morning, 9 hours after the
incident?
14- Is there any previous groupism between the local and non Indian
Christian?
15- Is there any support for this incident from the local Christian
leaders due to leadership, administrative and financial questions?
16- According to medical authorities Keonjhar and Mayurbhanj district
are not at all in the map of leprosy prone area of the state.  Then why
Graham started a leprosy center there?
17- Whether service to Santhals disconnect them socially from other
Santhals that hurt them since last long?
18- Is it an international conspiracy of creating communal disturbances
involving Christians and pressurising from western white countries to
dethrone this Vajpayee led Government?
19- Whether English media particularly the New Indian Express is a handy
work of that conspiracy and so giving such preplanned baseless statement
involving VHP & Bajrang Dal ?
20- Though law and order is a state chapter, why some political groups
and leaders blaming the central Government?  Are they acting as per the
conspiracy?
21- As a part of that conspiracy the state administration is not acting
as per the Freedom of Religion Act (1969), Orissa.
22- Also the police authority acting to that international conspiracy,
stating the involvement of Bajrang Dal without visualising the spot and
the incident.

Condemnations:
1- Almost all national and regional political parties have condemned
this cruel act including BJP, BJD and Congress.
2- Leftist wagon and Janata Dal condemned this act but traditionally
blamed RSS, VHP & Bajrang Dal.
3- RSS, VHP & Bajrang Dal having no organisational works in that area,
then why to blame them?
4- Many organisations also condemned this heinous crime, of which state
RSS, VHP & Bajrang Dal are in the fore front.


A special report by Shri Subash Chouhan,
RASTRADEEP, Narisangha Sadan Chhak, Buxi Bazar, Cuttack 753 001. Tel:
(0671) 60 1552.


31st Jan 1999      Udhay Shankar N @pobox.com

>From: CUSTOMER CARE CENTRE 

>The discovery of "zero'  
>as the beginning of universe, astrology,astronomy,medicine,statecraft
>and several subjects have their origins in religion.

And would you want to substantiate this sweeping statement with any facts,
references or citations, or is this too much to ask ?

>Remember, that no matter what may happen, religion is to mankind as water
>is to a fish. 

I am reminded of Shaw's remark in this context: A man without Religion is
like a fish without a bicycle.

A flat statement here: Religion has _nothing whatsoever_ to do with theism.
The most empirically appropriate description of Religion I've seen is from
a song which calls it "recipe for hate".

Do not bother to respond unless you know what is being referred to here.

Udhay

~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*
     Udhay Shankar N,  Bangalore, India 
                http://www.pobox.com/~udhay
                   finger for public key


1st Feb 1999      K.Varatharajan @igcar.ernet.in

Dear Mr. Vijay,

I am able to understand your feelings. How to implement your noble ideas?
Have emailed this message to persons holding key positions like President,
Prime Minister, Chief Ministers, Chief Justices of High Courts, Chief
Justice of Supreme Court and renowned social servants in the country. I am
afraid that unless all the above personalities can join to venture to open
the departmental stores, you have described, real democracy in conjunction
with real secularism is impossible.

With kind regards,

Yours truly
K.Varatharajan


1st Feb 1999      Chief Access Facilitator @webindia.com

I strongly belive in god. I dont belive in religion.  I also belive god
was made by man. What with all this madness and things. Belif about od is
ok. But such madness is a no no no...

R Krishnan
CAF - Chief Access Facilitator
WebIndia - Welcome to Business in India
http://www.webindia.com/


2nd Feb 1999      CUSTOMER CARE CENTRE @bom2.vsnl.net.in

Dear Mr Sharma,

Thank you for the excellent report on ground details of the whole episode.
Kindly extend my sincere appreciation to Mr Dushyant Viswanathan for the 
elaboration of the antecedents and realties of the situation.

Obviously, all attempts to change the demographic profile of innocent and
tribal India thru inducements should be condemned and resisted by all 
religions. And use of coercive and psychological pressure for conversions
should be sternly dealt with by the law enforcing agencies.

As I mentioned in my earlier writings on the subject, a thorough probe is
needed to study the influence of foreign funds, their direction, the
beneficiary profile and pattern of their functioning.

Its indeed a pity to note the poor reporting and qualitative content of
most of the media reports on the subject. Even Star Television with its
glitter and savvy presentation failed to project the realities as much 
as Mr Dushyant Viswanathan has done. 

This is to request Mr Viswanathan to monitor the developing events and 
report on the same as we can derive a lot of experience in understanding
the fallout of this incident on the community.

Thanks Mr Sharma for the appropriate contribution.

I also wish to thank Ms Vani and the administrators of this forum for
their support to present this debate and also enabling to raise the
quality of the debate by their choice of presentations from the members. 


Ramkumar


2nd Feb 1999      Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com

>Any of you "secularists" or "Marxists" or anyone else condemning the 
>RSS >and other dharmin groups for the Christian violence, read this 
>carefully, then we'll talk. And I'd like to hear if anyone who calls themselves 
>an Indian would find fault in the killing of that Australian 
>proselytizer. You really should stop reading what the western media has to say 
>about Hinduism and Indian affairs.

Well, I do not think any body has to necessarily fit to the 
definitions of "secularists" or "Marxists" if he/she condemns such 
inhuman and barbarous killing of another human being with his two 
young sons. Every human being has a right to live irrespective of his
religious faith and whatever he does as the law of the land permits. So
what if he was a proselytizer. If anybody has found the Australian was
involved in unlawful conversion of the Hindus, that could have been dealt
in legal forum. That would have far reaching effect on the society. I
wonder if all the Indian newspaper and magazines come under western media
or what! Does the sender advise us that we should read the mouthpiece of
the RSS "Rastradeep" alone to get the correct information about such
incidents and believe it?   


>(From a Oriya Weekly from Cuttack, Orissa, on Jan 26, 1999.)

"Rastradeep" is not an Oriya weekly in the right sense. It is the 
mouthpiece of RSS (may be appearing in Oriya). I wonder if is it 
deliberate to mention the article is from an Oriya Weekly at the 
beginning and "Rastradeep" at the end, to draw attention of the list!

>A special report by Shri Subash Chouhan,RASTRADEEP, Narisangha Sadan 
Chhak, Buxi >Bazar, >Cuttack 753 001. Tel:(0671) 60 1552.


I would like to point out a few factual errors in the article for kind
notice of all:

>16- According to medical authorities Keonjhar and Mayurbhanj district are
>not at all in the map of leprosy prone area of the state.  Then 
>why Graham started a leprosy center there?

Graham did not start the leprosy home. It was set up 100 years ago 
with the patronage of then erstwhile ruler (Maharaja) of Mayurbhanj. If
there was no leprosy patient in Mayurbhanj why has it been there for last
100 years. From when our medical authorities have started mapping
different disease zones in the backward areas of Orissa, when no doctor
(even fresh medical graduates) wish to get posted in such tribal/rural
areas!

>21- As a part of that conspiracy the state administration is not 
>acting as per the Freedom of Religion Act (1969), Orissa.

In the event of inaction of State Administration, is it not 
responsibility of the so-called protectors of Hinduism to take the 
matter to the right forum. Has there been a single case filed by any of
those groups regarding violation of the act.

As I understand from the article, the reporter has tried compiling 
convenient rumors about the incident to establish that the Australian
deserved the barbarous killing, however he has taken care in pointing out
that RSS has also in forefront in condemning such incident. 

I can not imagine the days when every Indian start depending on 
"Rastradeep" to


2nd Feb 1999      Aseem Asthana @bom4.vsnl.net.in

Hello there once again,

** Mr Sharma wrote **

> I cannot completely agree with the common  assertion that Hindus must be
"tolerant" at the > expense of our lives

Danger of life, expence of life????????

> here we do not face pressure to sacrifice our culture for money, food,
clothing, and shelter.
Is there any culture without food, shelter and clothing.
Or as the Star news reported, when a man and a woman were thrown out of
the village with the lady being labeled as a witch! Or is this a
halucination of the Western media. 


You say that money is coming from foreign for Christian missionaries and
that no money is being given to Hare Krishna's. You are claiming both the
point, for you and against Christians. And no proof for any of them.

>  Lastly, the conversion of Hindus in India and the conversion of
>Christians in  America are two entirely separate matters:  Hinduism is the belief
> system INDIGENOUS to  India, whereas Christianity is the religion that colonized
>America, and is NOT indigenous to it.

So there faith is lesser to Indian faith? 

You seem to be in the grip of a superiority complex. American faith is
inferior. And anybody who is opposed to your view point is a
pseudo-secularist. Did it occur to you that the act in Orissa was
pseudo-Human and pseudo-hindu? 

Bye,

Aseem. 


Aseem Asthana, 239 A, New Swarg Mandir,
Mhow 453441, MP, India.

Final Yr, Comp Sc. 
Sri Govindram Sekseria Institute of Technology,
23, Park Rd, Indore. MP. India. 


2nd Feb 1999      Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com

This refers to Vasant Sharma’s recent mail on the subject:

>However, I cannot completely agree with the common 
>assertion that Hindus must be "tolerant" at the expense of our lives just
>because our religion supposedly says so.  This is completely 
>false.  In fact it is our very religion that says that unjustice must be 
>destroyed at all costs, and that it is our very duty to uphold Dharma and protect the 
>weak when we are in positions of power.  Why is it so difficult to see that 
>when missionaries take advantage of the weak and the disadvantaged in our 
>society that this is NOT a normal conversion?

If we are really concerned about those weak and disadvantaged people in
our society, this can not be solved through hatred towards missionaries.
Rather we Hindus should stop building more temples (there are enough
already) and performing more rituals (to wash our sins); rather we should
develop a social mechanism where the problems of such deprived section of
the people can be addressed. We should not ignore how much injustice we
(strong and advantaged Hindus) are doing to those poor people by not
addressing their problems for centuries. Mere sheding crocodile tears
would do no good to those unfortunate people. How can we expect from those
people to uphold their Dharma when they can’t manage a square meal in a
day? More over the growing greediness and materialism practiced by we
educated and well to do people, have made their life more difficult. With
out realizing such inherent problem with the issue the neo-Hindus want to
import stupid concept like "Jihad" from other religion and want us to
believe that they are doing a big service to our religion. 


>The difference between you and I accepting Christianity and an 
>impoverished tribal in Orissa doing the same is that you and I are in an economic 
>position where we do not face pressure to sacrifice our culture for money, 
>food, clothing, and shelter.  We can intellectually rationalize whether 
>Christianity has something better to offer us in terms of 
>spirituality.  Unforunately, the disadvantaged in our society have to be
>concerned with immediate needs for survival.

Such comments are expected from those people who have never 
experienced poverty (or never starved to be precise!). Food, clothing and
shelter are the basic needs for any human being to survive on this Earth.
Is it unfortunate (or crime!) that the disadvantaged section in our
society, are more concerned with immediate needs of survival? It means
they should not be concerned about their survival, they should simply
perish from this Earth for making our neo-Hindus proud of their religion!
I am really sad to note how selfish and cruel the so-called proud Hindus
can become to uphold their Dharma.

As a matter of fact we all know the so-called "you and I" are more 
concerned about the money and their material needs. Otherwise why most of
our highly educated people are after a job in a developed country. They
can sacrifice anything for dollars and so-called professional
satisfaction. So we have no right to look down those unfortunate people.
In fact "you and I" are responsible to some extent for their plight.    


>To correct any misunderstandings: I did not once state that all 
>foreigners are "evil", nor did I say that they are all missionaries.  My only point 
>was that missionaries in India are heavily aided and abetted by the almighty 
>dollar (read: >foreign.)  And to respond to Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's 
>analogy between the foreign missionary in India and the ISCKON guru in
>America, this is an inappropriate comparison.  Hare Krishnas in America
>are not supported by the kind of money that is pumped to fuel conversions
>in India and other poor countries.  Hare Krishnas do not bribe poor
>Americans with promises of health care, food, and clothing if they
>convert to Krishna Consciousness.  Lastly, the conversion of Hindus in
>India and the conversion of Christians in America are two entirely
>separate matters: Hinduism is the belief system INDIGENOUS to India,
>whereas Christianity is the religion that colonized America, and is NOT
>indigenous to it.

I have spent my childhood in one of the tribal areas of Orissa. I have
strong reason to believe the Hinduism is also not indigenous to the tribal
people. They have their own way of practicing religious faith, which is
distinctly different than our Hindu rituals. So in a sense we Hindus are
responsible for destroying their unique culture and way of life by
imposing our own. Of course unlike Christians we Hindus have not lured
them by doing social service, rather they have naturally accepted it for
their survival. I have grown up seeing how badly those tribal people being
exploited by so called civilized people.

I don’t believe we Hindus (or Indians) have not enough money to pursue
social service for the needy Indians. In fact I would very much appreciate
if somebody can compare the amount received every year by Christian
missionaries in India for their activities and the donation received
annually in the HUNDI of the Tirumala Temple. I would not be surprised if
the amount for missionary activity is a just a fraction of the income of
Tirumala temple alone. So money is not the only reason for such
activities. It is the religious zeal that drives Christian to do such
social service for the poor, which may ultimately lead to conversion. But
in case of our indigenous religion Hinduism, we are more bothered about
adding more gold ornaments to our idols rather spending the money for
people living in abject poverty. So whom should we blame! 


>Here is a quote by Swami Vivekananda, a most respected guru in the 
Hindu tradition.  I think it might prove interesting to some of us:

>"If all India stands up, and takes all the mud that is at the bottom 
>of the Indian Ocean and throws it up against the Western countries, it will 
>not be doing An infinitesimal part of that which you are doing to us..." "It is 
>not true that I am against any religion.  It is equally untrue that I am 
>hostile to the Christian missionaries in India.  But I protest against certain of 
>their methods of raising money in America.  What is meant by those 
>pictures in the school-books for children where the Hindu mother is
>painted throwing her children to crocodiles in the Ganga? The mother is
>black, but the baby is painted white, to arouse more sympathy, and get
>more money.  What is meant by those pictures which paint a man burning
>his wife at a stake with his own hands, so that she may become a ghost
>and torment the husband's enemy?  What is meant by the pictures of huge
>cars crushing over human beings?  The other day a book was published for
>children in this country (America), where one of these gentlemem tells a
>narrative of his visit to Calcutta.  He says he saw a car running over
>fanatics in the streets of Calcutta. I have heard one of these gentlemen
>preach in Memphis that in every village of India there is a pond full of
>the bones of little babies.  What have the Hindus done to these disciples
>of Christ that every Christian child is taught to call the Hindus 'vile',
>and 'wretches', and the most horrible devils on earth?  Part of the
>Sunday school education for children here consists in teaching them to
>hate everybody who is not a Christian, and the Hindus especially, so
>that, from their very childhood they may subscribe their pennies to the
>missions... Look again at the books published in Madras against the Hindu
>religion. If a Hindu writes one such line against the Christian religion,
>the missionaries will cry fire and vengeance." -Complete Works, Volume 4,
>pp. 344-5.

I wonder why people take help of such outdated quote of Swami 
Vivekananda to make their point. I think these days Western societies, are
not so hostile to Hinduism. It is apparent from the growing popularity of
Hindu religion, culture, food, traditional medicine, Yoga in general and
the organization/people such as ISKON and Mahesh yogi in particular.
Moreover, we have to consider the time when Swami Vivekananda referred the
above situation. What was the level of literacy and quality of life and
the obsession of people towards religion prevailed in Western society
those days! Definitely there has been a big change in perception in West
about India and Indian culture. It is evident from the list of titles on
serious aspects of Indian culture and Hinduism one would find in
Amazon.com, written by western scholars. On the contrary we are still
living in a society where many of our fellow citizens live in abject
poverty and the so-called cultured, educated people propagating casteism
and religious fanaticism. It would also be proper to go through the quotes
of Swami Vivekananda on the Hindu society of those days and analyze has
there been any change in our mindset.

>And I'm sorry to say that much of this nonsense still goes on.  Yes, 
>I've been to Sunday school, and I've seen what they say about other religions.  
>Yes, I've heard Pat Robertson speak, urging all Christians to pump 
>money into missionary efforts in India, as India is  "a sea of 
>ignorance" and within every Hindu "there is a Christian crying for 
>help."  So please don't try to tell me that I am talking out of my 
>head; I've seen and read this stuff first-hand. 

So, are not those proud fanatical Hindus consolidating the effort of those
Christian zealots by committing the cowardice and barbaric crimes such as
the one recently happened in Orissa! 


>I am willing to elaborate on every point I've made.  The 
>pseudo-secularists on this mailing list can try to take apart my argument bit by bit, if 
>they wish to try.  I hope this discussion is fruitful for all of us and
>we all learn something in the process. 

If those who express their views against the Hind


5th Feb 1999      Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com

This refers to Mr.Ramkumar's recent mail:

>Obviously, all attempts to change the demographic profile of innocent 
>and tribal India through inducements should be condemned and resisted by 
>all religions. And use of coercive and psychological pressure for 
>conversions should be sternly dealt with by the law enforcing agencies.

We must also try to look at the demographic profile of the innocent 
and tribal India, in the background of last fifty years of our 
colonial freedom. How much have we succeeded in providing them descent
human life through all those tribal development schemes of both central
and state governments! Many statistics and surveys have already
established that we have miserably failed to provide them basic living
condition despite all those schemes funded through our own money as well
as some foreign aids (through government). Should we not be concerned
about the politician-bureaucracy-forest based entrepreneurs' nexus, which
have systematically exploited these innocent tribal people, depriving them
of their livelihood? After all how can we boast ourselves as a proud and
strong nation ignoring our tribal fellow-citizens? They also deserve
descent human life like any other citizen in


5th Feb 1999      AJAY0PAUL @aol.com

Very good reasoning.  The worst thing any Hindu can do it try to ape the
Christian right wing organizations.

Hinduism has not needed the RSS and it's unlawful bunch for over 6000-5000
years, and I seriously doubt that it (Hinduism) needs it now.

Ajay


6th Feb 1999      Dushyant Arun Viswanathan

Hinduism doesnt need the RSS? Wow; what nonsensical misinformation people
have circulated about the RSS!! The RSS is the largest social work
organization in India; they have thousands of projects, from tribal
develpment to village self-reliance programs, to women empowerment. They
have selfless workers, nameless workers, who every day use their
specialization (whether it be medecine, teaching, occupational therapy, or
psychology) to help people, the lower classes, the scheduled classes, etc.
No one in India is doing the kind of work the RSS is doing, even though
they are quite underfunded compared to Christian relief groups. At this
point, if you have read about RSS seva programs, and you still think
Hindus (Indians) dont need the Sangh Parivar, you are little more than a
traitor.

Dushyant

To inform you, check out www.idrf.org for more information about RSS
social work.


7th Feb 1999      Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com

Dear friends,

This refers to the recent mail from Mr. Vasant Sharma on the subject:
"communal" issue. 

>Hello all, here is an extremely relevant article by Dushyant 
>Vishwanathan, of UC Irvine.  Read it carefully, as it may make you think.  Since we are all debating 
>this incident, perhaps we should better acquaint ourselves with the details.
>-Vasant Sharma
>P.S.  If any one would like to respond to Dushyant, please do so...I 
>will froward any and all responses regarding this to him.

I have already sent a mail to the list pointing out the fact that the
article passed by Mr. Sharma is not by Dushyant Vishwanathan, of UC
Irvine, the reporter is Shri Subash Chouhan of RASTRADEEP (mouthpiece of
RSS). I noticed the name of the reporter at the end of the article from
Mr. Sharma's mail. 

Meanwhile I just happened to see an article (STAINES' KILLING: Burning
Shame by Ruben Banerjee) in the current issue (February 08 1998) of "India
Today", and I found out further that Shri Subash Chouhan, the so-called
reporter is also the convener of "State Hindu Jagran Samukhya" that sounds
like a radical Hindu organization (may be a part of  Sangha Parivar). The
related excerpt from "India Today" is as follows:

"…Graham was never into conversions. All he did was to spread the 
message of the Lord," insists widow Glades. Others, however, believe that
his preaching often led to conversions. "He was killed because he was
proselytising. People might have killed him in a fit of rage," says state
Hindu Jagran Samukhya convener Subhash Chauhan. "

Considering the affiliation of Mr. Chauhan one can easily make out how
objective his reporting could be. It is also surprising to note the tone
of Mr. Dushyant Vishwanathan's (he is yet to be introduced to the list)
message that has been passed by Mr. Sharma to the list:

>Any of you "secularists" or "marxists" or anyone else condemning the 
>RSS and other dharmin groups for the Christian violence, read this 
>carefully, then we'll talk. And I'd like to hear if anyone who calls
>themselves an Indian would find fault in the killing of that Australian
>proselytizer. You really should stop reading what the western media has to
>say about Hinduism and Indian affairs.

>dushyant

It would be nice if this wonderful forum is not used to fool the 
members of the list by passing some deliberate and biased reports to inf


8th Feb 1999      krishna kumar @hotmail.com

seen your message. Actually stains is killed by a group of anti-social
elements.main culprit dhara singh is supported by congress(i),it's learnt.
there are a no. of cases against him ,but no action had taken .that is,
the state govt. backing him and using him to meet their own political
ends. In that murder no hindu organizations are involved, in fact these
orgs. have no units in that area.


8th Feb 1999      Dushyant Arun Viswanathan @ea.oac.uci.edu

i think mr. sharma made it clear that he was forwarding an article to the
list that i had sent him. i am a college student in the US. that article
was written by someone in India. any common sense could see that i didnt
write that article, but had forwarded it to mr. sharma. no intended
deception is involved here. you need an introduction? my name is dushyant.
hello.


10th Feb 1999      rajshekhar roy @hotmail.com

Dear all ,

Where has reason and objectivity gone ? We seem to have two sides in this
debate both are entrenched in their positions. However the truth is
probably somewhere in between.

I think it is a crying shame that people who have no idea about RSS deem
themselves fit to pass judgements on the movement. I am not a radical or
fanatic hindu nor do I have links with any political organization. However
one of my activities some time back was to organize blood donation camps.
I came in touch with many RSS people and found them to be excellent
persons , steeped in ideology , caring for social good and sacrificing all
material and other comforts to work in an area that they beel committed
about. To brand all these people as anti secular and minority haters just
because it is fashionable is extremely unfair and unfortunate.

I think of late secularism has come to mean that hindus should give way to
everything from imperial demolition of temples to induced conversion in
the name of tolerance. Anytime a crime is committed against a member of
the minority community the media and the so called secular people join the
bandwagon and claim that it is the RSS/BJP who are behind it without even
bothering to find out the facts of the case. Is it surprising then that
they end up with egg on their face most of the time ? Countless crimes are
committed against the hindus in India and no one seems to have the time to
write about these.

This is not a religious issue at all. The issue is highly politicized and
the heartening fact is that these people are being exposed now. The
congress for all its motherhood statements cannot maintain basic law and
order situation in Orissa where the situation is infinitely  worse than in
Gujrat.

As I said in an earlier note the BJP is in power as people voted for it.
It is really a joke when a party with 140 seats claims that they are not
interested in power - that too with a leader who is actively involved in a
payment case that we all know about.No amount of these stupid propaganda
by the so called secularists is going to change the fact that hindus and
hinduism will live in its own terms be it in the area of constructing the
temple or protesting against induced conversions.

Thanks


10th Feb 1999      Ram Narayanan @worldnet.att.net

The Christian Establishment  has a clearly focused plan "to deliver
India's millions from the darkness of Hinduism" (This quote is from one of
their publications in America). This publication describes at length the
efforts of Christian missionaries to convert "the tens of millions who
still wander in darkness in India's Hindi belt".

Ram Narayanan


11th Feb 1999      Vivek Malpani @indrayani.com

RSS info
Also at  " http://www.rss.org/rss/www "

vivek malpani


12th Feb 1999      Sudhir Sarup @giasdl01.vsnl.net.in

I fully agree with the submission of Mr. Krishna Kumar and wish to add
that such directed condemnations are not required unless one is fully
acquinted with the facts.

While I  have all the sympathies with berieved family, we must not get
emotional to use this forum for condeming one or the other community.

Surprised to note that not even one posting has been made to condemn the
rash drunken driving & killings by the youths in their BMW last month.

That issue is ofa serious concern for our society.

Thanks

Sarup


14th Feb 1999      Aseem Asthana @bom4.vsnl.net.in

>  I fully agree with the submission of Mr. Krishna Kumar and wish to add
>that such directed condemnations are not required unless one is fully
>acquinted with the facts.

No one ever will come to know the whole truth. If we all sat waiting for
the absolute truth to come out then we might be sitting for ever to take
most of our actions. We all act, in almost all the cases on information
that we deem to be coming from a reliable source and adequate for our
purposes. With all due respect, even you have not acted with being not
fully acquinted with the facts. You ASSUMED that the people who responded
were not acquinted with the facts. 

>While I  have all the sympathies with berieved family, we must not get
>emotional to use this forum for condeming one or the other community.

As far as I know, there have been no condemnations against any community -
either Hindu or Christian. All that was said was agaist the act and the
kind of people who did the act. 

>Surprised to note that not even one posting has been made to condemn the
>rash drunken driving & killings by the youths in their BMW last month.

Religious intolerance is of a more serious concern than bad driving by
some brats. 

Aseem. 


Aseem Asthana, 239 A, New Swarg Mandir,
Mhow 453441, MP, India.

Final Yr, Comp Sc. 
Sri Govindram Sekseria Institute of Technology,
23, Park Rd, Indore. MP. India.

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