Leper Home head slaughtered
24th Jan 1999 Kerry R Kinchen @stic.net
Hello all, Here is the recent example of the mindless rampage occurring all across India. The head of the Baripada leprosy home in Orissa was burned alive along with his two young children Friday. ............................................................................ ........................ "A report from Bhubaneswar says a 58-year old Australian, Graham Stewart Staines, belonging to the Evangelical Missionary Society of Mayurbhanj and his two minor sons were burnt alive when the vehicle in which they were sleeping was set on fire on Friday night at Manoharpur village, about 180 km from Baripada...The police said Graham along with the others had gone to the village on a ``jungle camp,'' an annual gathering of Christians of the area. Graham had been living in Baripada since 1965. The Evangelical Society, besides religious preaching, also runs a 100-bed leprosy home..." This excerpt is from the article in the "Times Of India" Jan. 24, Sunday, 1999. http://www.timesofindia.com/today/24home1.htm Regards, Kerry Kinchen@stic.net
24th Jan 1999 Srinath Srinivasa @usa.net
First it was Gujarat, now it is in Orissa. When will this madness stop? It is not possible to get shocked so many times so frequently. What causes such brutal acts of terror? What goes on in the minds of these people? Whatever be the arguments, violent fanaticism must be one of the lowliest kinds of animal behavior. Incidents like this make me shudder to look into the future of our society. Are we heading to an imminent savage era in the history of our country? srinath
25th Jan 1999 Aseem Asthana @bom4.vsnl.net.in
Hello there, The recent incident in Orissa, of the mod killing an Australian missionary and his two young sons is a real shock. I wonder what will be the kind of people who can do such a thing as this. Can u imagine two young boys and their father being burned alive inside a jeep. They are being burnt to death in front of their father and the father can do nothing to protect them. He is also inside the jeep. And the raving mad mob outside shouting 'Jai Shri Ram'. They have put Lord Ram himself to shame. I don't think that HE would have allowed such things to happen. The police is blaming the Bajrag Dal for this. Those people with their ideology of Hindutva feel that they can bring Ram Rajya by doing things like this?? I wonder about the people who could have done such a thing just because somebody called Dara exhorted them into doing such an act. Imagine their psychology. I have forsaken my own people . I live in dream palaces, building castles in air, thinking that India has progressed, just because I can launch missiles, chat on internet, and detonate nuclear devices. I live in a sense of false security, surrounded by soaps, beauty lotions, designer wear et al. And for those of us who are inclined to think that these are the evils of a western civilization thrust upon us, I would say, Oh! What a flawed culture that allows its values of three thousand years to be wiped out in some decades. I have this sense of false security when the real India passes by me Hungry, Cold and Sad. On a rly platform in Indore I saw a women an her three children eating what was perhaps their only meal of the day. Two rotis and one large onion chopped in four with a large helping of salt. But onions don't come cheap. And while I am at peace with my air castles, those who come from outside to help my people are burnt. I think, that on the whole our whole society is to blame. As opposed to the popular notion that Indian society is very polite and sensitive to others feelings, we as a people are becoming more and more cruel. We are not very polite people. Just look at how an average Delhiwalla talks to you. Look at UP, Bihar, Orissa and you will know that we are no apostles of politeness. And as far as being sensitive to others feelings is concerned, just forget it. There are any number of cases I have seen where boys throw stones at stray dogs for fun. In one case, in Ujjain, I even witnessed a man kicking, with all his might, a small puppy. On being asked why did so, I was told to mind my business. In the ensuing fight I learnt that he got a sense of being MACHO from such acts. I think that somehwere along the way we have lost the basic Indianness. Though we are still proud to flaunt it and cite our contribution to the world, while our own lives are in shambles. People may be not inclined to belive that the lives of Indians are in shambles but Delhi and Bombay and a handful of other cities are not India. What Gandhiji said, that India lives in its villages, is as true as it was 50 years back. And life of an average Indian in the village is not in shambles. It is SHATTERED!! India is passing through very tough times. The hardest test lies in the soial arena. Can be pull together the act and continue as a nation, a great nation that we boast to be? Or are we going the Yugoslavia way, killing each other and not caring, not being sensitive to not only others needs and wants but also to their pain and their fears. That is what we need today to survive as a nation and, in my small understanding, I think that is what the world's religions have tried to teach us all this while. I understand that not all people may like this piece. I am ready for the flames. For even in the flames, you will be expressing opinion and expressing opinion is the first step to making Indians sensitive, for by expressing our opinions we cease to be indifferent(I am reminded of, India can be different, if we are not indifferent.) and that is the step before taking action. Trying not to be indifferent, Yours, Aseem. -- Aseem Asthana, 239 A, New Swarg Mandir, Mhow, MP, India 453441
25th Jan 1999 Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com
Within just 30 days (December 25 to January 25) a handful of fanatics have been able to do more harms to Hinduism than any of those invaders (belonging to other religion) from the history. It shows that the callousness on our part can lead to end of civilized life in India. I am really shocked to know such cowardice and barbaric incident, taking place in Orissa. It is irony to note that one of the founders of the independent Orissa province Barrister Madhu Sudan Das was a Christian. I just fail to understand what prompts people to behave in such inhuman way! If this is the way to revive Hinduism in India I am really ashamed of being a Hindu and an Indian. It is the time for deep introspection for all conscious Indians.
25th Jan 1999 Harshal Jawale @it.com.pl
As an Indian, proud of Indian values, my head hangs down in shame .... :-( I was shell-shocked when I read this news on the 'net ...... harshal
26th Jan 1999 rsharma4 @ix.netcom.com
Hello all, I feel it is extremely sad that the missionary in Orissa was burnt along with his two young sons. However, I think it is completely juvenile to throw all of the blame on Hindu organizations and conveniently label these organizations as "fanatic." First of all, a more serious issue needs to be addressed here. Why is it that so many missionaries, foreigners, are allowed to run amok in India, forcibly converting through the guise of "medical help", "education', and other pretenses? We as Indians, as Hindus, should be helping our own people so that they do not need any assistance from the zealous missionaries. Organizations like the RSS are not "fanatic" in the least. Instead, they teach Hindus that united we stand, and divided we fall. The RSS in particular has many projects in which the poor, the sick, and the starving are helped to get back on their feet- why is it we never give them any credit? I find it even more sad that the current atmosphere in India promotes an extreme anti-Hindu sentiment, and that the upper-crust (the intelligentsia) falls for Congress-sponsored propaganda by denouncing their own people. When are Hindus and Indians as a whole going to wake up? When our culture is completely decimated by Western Colonial ideals? When we no longer feel at home in the nation of our ancestors? After missionaries succeed in making us all Bible-toting Christians? One last comment- to address Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's point: I personally will never be ashamed of being a Hindu and an Indian.
27th Jan 1999 Kerry R Kinchen @stic.net
Hello everyone, The reason that so many "missionaries, foreigners" are allowed to be in India is because the Indian constitution allows them too. There is provision for Missionary Visas and other types of Visas for "foreigners." To see the application for the Missionary Visa go to: http://www.indianembassy.org/consular/visa(instructions).htm This is a clear example of the lawful nature of the Indian form of government. On the other hand burning children alive who are out on a "jungle camp" is an evil crime. The Indian government rightly and lawfully condemns such action as murder. The government of India also recognizes that one does not "forcibly convert" someone to Christianity. Such a decision is a matter of free choice. It is disturbing to me (a frequent tourist of India and a seemingly dreaded "foreigner") to read comments such as the one posted above on the Inn. How can one associate a man sacrificing a normal lifestyle for the duty of taking care of lepers, with "running amok," and pretentiousness. Not many people want to be near someone who has leperousy. I ask anyone reading this...Do you? Historical Christianity and it's manifestation of brotherly love is not a "Western Colonial ideal." Jesus was a man from an area called Nazareth in israel. One of Jesus' followers (Thomas) brought Christianity to India almost two thousand years ago--long before the "West" as we now define it, ever emerged. This is a fact that many Indians are proud of. India also has it's share of Christian missionaries leaving and going out to other countries and establishing converts. I know of three examples of Churches started by Indians from Kerala in the Dallas/Fortworth, Texas area, and have read of one Christian mission work in Colorado started by a tribal from the Hmar tribe in Manipur named Rochunga Podaite. It is nobel for one to be proud to be a Hindu and be an Indian. Why is it not just as nobel for one to be proud to be a Christian and be an Indian? Regards, Kerry firstname.lastname@example.org
27th Jan 1999 D.Haldar @pobox.com
I think you have lost the wood for the trees. Here there is only one question to be addressed. is the savagery unleashed in India during the last few months justified for the cause? I am a Hindu but I do not endorse it at all and neither I will ever vote for BJP. Hinduism has been an epitome of tolerance in the last millenium and that is the reason it survived against the very harsh attempts of the Moslem rulers. India is a free country unlike those Moslem ones. If you abide by the laws of the land you are free to do and say what you like. I should hate to be included with the puritanical societies of the Middle East and Pakistan. Let us face it. If Bjp Government was not at the centre these dastardly people would never have attempted such deeds. As the President said Orissa happening was a mostrous aberration and is eligible for inclusion amongst the darkest deeds against mankind. When the brits were here Christians enjoyed several privileges but inspite of it they could not make a dent in the Indian society. If I want to become Christian for any reason whatsoever or even Muslim or a jew there is no power on earth to stop me. Is the Sangh Parivar the only repository of Hindu faith? Hinduism is a way of life and not a aggressive religiion that some are. It is this Genghiz Khan tactics of Sangh parivar which is most upsetting. D. Haldar
28th Jan 1999 Aseem Asthana @bom4.vsnl.net.in
Hello there everybody, Mr. Sharma, you rightly pointed out that it is juvenile to blame the Sangh Parivar for the Orrisa act without any probe into to incident. But unfortunately you yourself could not resist the same motivation and called it a 'Congress-sponsored propaganda'. There is no proof for this either. > denouncing their own people Are we really denouncing our own people? I don't have any reason to believe so and I think that the bad state of affairs is not because of our denouncing our own people but due to large scale corruption in the Indian body politic and that is because Indians as such are not very vocal in their complaints as such. And that again is due to the fact that Indians are not very sensitive to either what is being done to them or what they do. This, I pointed out in an earlier post. > Why is it that so many missionaries, foreigners, are allowed > to run amok in India, forcibly converting through the guise of > "medical help", "education', and other pretenses? The situation is very bad for the people of the villages in India. There is not enough to eat, not live of anything for that matter. In such circumstances it is understandable that any such person, if offered a better life and enough food or medicine in pain etc will adopt the religion of the provider. Arguably this practice is not very right. But let us think, what is better, tempting and provinding or just tempting (read making promises by the politicians) and not providing even once? If a man gets a better life as a Christian, well then why should we grudge him that? What, anyway have we done for those, that we have any right over them? Those people have very little reason to stay in India. It is akin to the case where people leave a country, like many in India do, for say US in search of better standards, money, life style and other things. Similarly, a man should be able to change to a religion that he feels is better(in what ever terms.) Who are we to decide which religion is better for them? > they teach Hindus that united we stand, and divided we fall United we stand, against whom? Against the other people, the Non Hindus of the country? Or some foreign element ? If it is against the other religions of the country then we are in for troubled times? And they teach the we should be united against some foreign element then we will need all the people of this country to fight together. It is every ones duty and RIGHT to defend the honour of this country. But to be fair to you, I must say that you probably did'nt what and/or mean this sentence to be read with such a narrow interpretation. > (we) should be helping our own people so that they do not need > any assistance from the zealous missionaries But have we been? In the past fifty years things have not got very much better? > We as Indians, as Hindus, . . . Again I must ask you that do you equate being an Indian with being a Hindu and vice versa? It is only after I know your view point that I can reply to this. > The RSS in particular has many projects in which the poor, the > sick, and the starving are helped to get back on their feet- > why is it we never give them any credit? Personally, I have not heard about them. And I don't know for what reasons. But to think of it, I had never even heard of Dr. G. Steins before the ghastly incident. But I won't think of doubting your word. And I must add that the people who were and are being helped be the RSS to get back on their feets will never think of conversion and they have found a niche in Hinduism. For their help people from other religions may embrace Hinduism. > I find it even more sad that the current atmosphere in India > promotes an extreme anti-Hindu sentiment I very strongly disagree with you on this point. It is unamaginable that there be a anti-hindu(ism) sentiment in India. Majority of Indians are Hindus and sentiments don't go against the majority. I wish you would explain more on this matter. > When are Hindus and Indians as a whole going to wake up? When > our culture is completely decimated by Western Colonial > ideals? When we no longer feel at home in the nation of our > ancestors? After missionaries succeed in making us all > Bible-toting Christians? These are powerful words that you have used. But you must explain more for a meaningful discussion. For now all I will say that if we are influenced by Western Colonial ideals, does this not mean that they are more practical, and more suited to everyday life. We have adopted many things from the westerns. Their language, dresses, education and the like. What is it that has had an undesirable effect on India. But I am sure that you will explaing your point better. > to address Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's point: I personally will > never be ashamed of being a Hindu and an Indian. I am sure that I should not Mr. Kedar does not need my advocacy in any matter, all the same I think that Mr. Mahapatra did not mean that he is ashamed of being an Indian or a Hindu, but just that he was ashamed at such acts. No Indian can be proud of this. I wish that you would reply to this post ASAP as a objective debate is good for everyone. With regards, Aseem. Final year SGSITS, Computer Science and Engg, Indore. Other Email IDs email@example.com firstname.lastname@example.org
28th Jan 1999 George Penner @indax.com
sorry for this long response, Innmates. I could not in any conscience let this go uncommented. email@example.com wrote: > First of all, a more serious issue needs to be addressed here. More serious than the slaughter of innocent children? More serious than the rapid decay of a social order and rule of law? More serious than hatred and violence in the name of God? >Why is it > that so many missionaries, foreigners, are allowed to run amok in India, > forcibly converting through the guise of "medical help", "education', and other > pretenses? "so many foreign missionaries"? I doubt that the total number of foreigners working in Christian organizations in India runs to more than a few hundred, if that. The government has for decades been very restrictive in issuing visas to foreign mission workers, and the very few that are here are usually involved in serious social work. Evangelical type foreign missionaries are very rare. Most Christian work is done by Indians. And how are they "running amok"? By running schools, and hospitals? by working in areas where the Indian government has done precious little? It would seem that this country could use a few more people "running amok" in that manner. the term, I suspect, is better used to describe mob violence, and where have we seen that sort of behaviour recently? And not once, or twice, but so many times that the papers only cover the most glaring incidents. And the authorities shrug complacently. and what, pray tell, is "forcible conversion". does it mean a gun to the head? conversion is in the hearts and minds of humans. It has rarely ever been forced, and then only by massive societal violence and upheaval. and even in those conditions people hold out. Pockets of Jews in spain in the Middle ages withstood the horrors of the Inquisition and worshipped secretly. So, too did Christians in Japan during the brutal Tokugawa times. African voodoo type practices survived in Haiti despite efforts to stamp them out. there is a long human history of people of many faiths holding true to what they held dear. There is also a long history of individuals changing religion due to sincere and honest soul searching. There are white sikhs, buddhists, and hindus. The Black Moslem community in America is very strong. Were these forced conversions too? We as Indians, as Hindus, should be helping our own people so that > they do not need any assistance from the zealous missionaries. why not rephrase that as "we as Indians - as Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Parsees, Jains, Buddhists, Animists, and others - should be helping our own people"? Or can you possibly hold that only Hindus can be Indian? Sadly, many do, and it will be the ruin of this country. And from the rate of increase in the atrocities recently against any minority group that ruin will come sooner than many expect. Just yesterday yet another massacre of landless Dalits in Bihar. There is no end in sight. Organizations > like the RSS are not "fanatic" in the least. Instead, they teach Hindus that > united we stand, and divided we fall. The RSS in particular has many projects > in which the poor, the sick, and the starving are helped to get back on their feet- > why is it we never give them any credit? The Ku Klux Klan also promotes unity - among a special group, whites - but few would support their fanaticism or their fear mongering tactics. They also support good causes at times, but their extreme positions on issues overshadows everything they do. > > I find it even more sad that the current atmosphere in India promotes an extreme > anti-Hindu sentiment, and that the upper-crust (the intelligentsia) falls for > Congress-sponsored propaganda by denouncing their own people. And how do they do this? By decrying the oppression of minorities and the oppressed? By being horrified when extremist groups claim to act in their interests, or worse yet in the name of their religion? By feeling sadness, rage, or helplessness when the basic laws of the country are shattered with impunity? >When are Hindus and Indians as > a whole going to wake up? Perhaps they are. Perhaps you are on the wrong side of the public mind. >When our culture is completely decimated by Western Colonial > ideals? How is this happening? The colonial powers have been gone for two generations. Other countries, possible more exploited by colonial rule, have developed thriving economies and pride in their cultures. (For example, the brutal Japanese colonization of Korea which left the country well behind India as recently as 1950) Can India still be blaming the British? Will the whining never end? Until people accept responsibility for what ever elements of their situation that they can affect, they will remain slaves to helplessness and apathy. History is full of stories of societies that made conscious, positive choices and grew. And of societies that wallowed in self pity until they rotted. >When we no longer feel at home in the nation of our ancestors? After missionaries > succeed in making us all Bible-toting Christians? You are probably quite safe there. The national census has consistently shown a decline in the percentage of Christians in India - never more than 3% at the highest. It sort of puts a lie to the idea of rampant "forced conversions". > > One last comment- to address Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's point: I personally will never be ashamed > of being a Hindu and an Indian. I imagine that there are a considerable number of Indians (many of whom are Hindus) that are quite ashamed, not of being either Indian or Hindu, but of actions and events supposedly taken in their names which they completely and utterly disown. George Penner
28th Jan 1999 PK Joseph @gto.net.om
If the RSS are not fanatics why did they beaten up 3 youths in Calicut yesterday for attending a prayer meeting held in a fellow Christian's home. The people arrested are all RSS members. As for the structure there are different groups for all atrocities and then the others disclaim the responsibility. The truth is that they are worried that the Congress will come back to power and the best way to stop that is to project Sonia Gandhi as Christian. The modus operandi is very simple. Attack minorities using Goondas from far away places. The Police will arrest the local Hindu people. The Bajrang Dal or RSS will help them to get them out and fight their cases. By this way they will have these innocent people's support to their rescuers. If the congress is coming back to power it is not going to be better than the present government and if the present Gov.. loses the power it is only because of their own failures. Your statement justifies the brutal killing of a man came all the way from Australia and helping the lepers of Orissa for 30 years. India is not a better place than Australia that he found luxuaries of Orissa to keep him there for 30 years. The game is to retain the power and we people get carried away by the politicians. Joseph.
28th Jan 1999 AJAY0PAUL @aol.com
Hey guys, Someone wrote a sentence regarding these missionaries converting the poor and the low-caste Indians. Well, if I was a low caste person, I too would convert to being a Christian or Muslim or any thing else just so that I get treated as an equal. And honestly, most of the converts remain Hindu, they 'convert' for the basic needs that all humans require -- food, respect, and a sense of worth. God, I hope that this miserable government and it's Mafia tactics don't turn India into what Pakistan is turning into. Ajay
28th Jan 1999 Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com
>I feel it is extremely sad that the missionary in Orissa was burnt >along with his two young sons. However, I think it is completely >juvenile to throw all of the blame on Hindu organizations and conveniently >label these organizations as "fanatic." I think, "fanatic" is the right term for those who committed such heinous crime in the name of religion. Whichever organization encourages such barbaric activities it would obviously termed "fanatic". No body will label Hindu organizations such as Ramakrishna Mission, Divine Life Society as fanatic. When we expect the individuals to be civilized for a humane society, how can we ignore about the uncivilized organizations those who want to take the country and people to the Stone Age? Imagine if one of ISKON guru from India get killed with his two young sons under the identical condition (like recent Orissa incident) in some western country for propagating Krishna consciousness! When it makes us happy to know some devotees from America celebrating Rath Yatra of Lord Jagannath in an American city, why cant we take propagation of other religions in our country in the same spirit! >First of all, a more serious issue needs to be addressed here. Why is >it that so many missionaries, foreigners, are allowed to run amok in >India, forcibly converting through the guise of "medical help", "education', >and other pretenses? We as Indians, as Hindus, should be helping our own people >so that they do not need any assistance from the zealous missionaries. >Organizations like the RSS are not "fanatic" in the least. Instead, they teach >Hindus that united we stand, and divided we fall. The RSS in particular has many >projects in which the poor, the sick, and the starving are helped to get back on >their feet- why is it we never give them any credit? The necessity of religion for spirit can be compared with medicine for the body. Now alternate medicines are getting popular in many places including India. You may be aware these days people from far away places are coming to Kerala and Hyderabad seeking Indian traditional healing of chronic diseases irrespective of their religion or nationality. Because they want to get cured, they want to live a healthy life. When a conscious individual seeks to change religious faith she/he also does it with higher expectation of spiritual realization. Well, the problem is that of forcible conversion (not at the gunpoint I suppose!). We upper caste Hindus still carry on depriving the so called low caste people in our rural areas from leading a respectable life. Should not we feel ashamed as Hindus with the incidents such as brutal killing of low caste villagers in Bihar recently! Should we blame than missionaries for converting such unfortunate Hindus! Why not organizations such as RSS can take it as a mission to abolish evil practice of caste system. Why not they go to tribal areas and backward rural areas to open new schools in stead of restricting their activities only in urban area (such as Sisumandirs). I wonder if economic viability is a criterion behind such activities. I would appreciate if somebody can give a brief account of the significant long-term achievements (I am aware they are involved in some voluntary activities during natural disasters like many other people or organizations) of RSS, except spreading cynical, outdated opinion about false Hindu pride. >I find it even more sad that the current atmosphere in India promotes >an extreme anti-Hindu sentiment, and that the upper-crust (the intelligentsia) >falls for Congress-sponsored propaganda by denouncing their own people. When are >Hindus and Indians as a whole going to wake up? When our culture is completely decimated by >Western Colonial ideals? When we no longer feel at home in the nation of our ancestors? >After missionaries succeed in making us all Bible-toting Christians? When Indian culture could not be decimated during hundreds of years Islamic and Christian rules, how can it be decimated by just a handful of missionaries! Moreover, I consider culture and religious faith are two different things. Many people belonging to other religious faith follow Indian culture. I sincerely believe everybody should be exposed to all religious scriptures at the early phase of life before one decides his religious faith. I know it may sound utopian to many. But many of our proud Hindus never read even Hindu religious scriptures (of course watching soap opera of the epics on TV screen is a different thing). >One last comment- to address Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's point: I personally >will never be ashamed of being a Hindu and an Indian. I respect the comment. But anybody, who has sense of shame, he/she should feel ashamed of such barbaric incidents taking place in the name of protecting religion, at least as a living human being.
28th Jan 1999 divya sharma @hotmail.com
hi everybody.. >>There is not enough to eat, not live of anything for that matter. In such circumstances it is understandable that any such person, if offered a better life and enough food or medicine in pain etc will adopt the religion of the provider.<< Well i don't agree with this statement by Aseem. Why a service provider has to ask something in return for his service.That means they are taking undue advantage of their money power..>>>>If they have real heart to serve people they can do by providing the services without asking for a change in religion or anything for that matters. divya
28th Jan 1999 divya sharma @hotmail.com
hi everybody >>>>a man should be able tochange to a religion that he feels is better<<<< Can anybody tell me what areligion means????people allover are talking about as if it's a "COMMODITY"..that u don't like u u opt for a better "COMMODITY". Religion is a culture which we have build and inherited from our ancestors...and we should be proud of it. And IF one thinks his religion is not "BETTER" than others then,,,,,he must "MAKE IT BETTER" rather than opting other religion or culture. P.S : INDIA has a HINDU religion or "CULTURE",,,,,we really won't opt for western culture or arab culture. Our ancestors "ARYANS" and "Dravidians" built it with such pain and today people want to opt other culture ...that's something to think about. divya
28th Jan 1999 Boby_Kurian @maaln.satyam.net.in
Hi Joseph and others out there, The BJP and the RSS have claimed that the incident near Calicut is a conspiracy and the case booked against seven RSS guys is a foisted one. Today morning I talked to O Rajagopal, BJP Deputy Leader in Rajya Sabha, who hails from Kerala. He had a very interesting observation. He said the incident near Calicut happened when only after a few over-zealous Christians from South Kerala attempted conversions in the locality. And the situation was blown out of proportion only after other political parties intervened, he added. Blaming the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency, America) for fermenting trouble, he said Vatican was falling prey to an international campaign to malign the right wing BJP. The lessons of the famous Liberation Struggle, which brought down the first democratically elected Marxist government of EMS Namboothiripad in 1959, should not be forgotten. The CIA had diverted funds to India through the Church to throw Communism out of India. The same forces were playing havoc at the national level now, he said. He quoted a former U.S. Amabassador to India who later said that CIA and Vatican were involved in bringing down the E.M.S ministry. In fact, the Ambassador also named a few Congress leaders (like Vayalar Ravi) from Kerala who received funds to lead the upheaval against the Marxists. Another interesting point was that BJP is not of the opinion that Christians, all of them, should be held responsible for the present communal unrest. The clash was between over-zealous neo-converts (or first generation Christians) and the groups targetted for conversion. The traditional Christians have never brought disrepute to Christianity by indulging in forced conversions, Rajagopal said. That's why Christians in Kerala have remained away from controversies, he added. The views expressed above are that of a senior BJP leader, who is expected to be inducted into the Union Cabinet in the next expansion. I thought it should be interesting, especially BJP's distinction between traditional Christians and neo-converts, to those who are closely following the recent spurt in communal behaviour. regards,
28th Jan 1999 Wilfred Babbili @nctcog.dst.tx.us
Dear Inn friends and learned netizens, I am engrossed at the current debate on communal situation in India. Amidst all the technological revolution and other dizzying changes in the way we all live our lives as part of an inter-connected world, the challenges of overcoming the raw emanations of communal bigotry and religious hatred seem to be following us into the next century. To be sure, very significant progress has been made on almost all other fronts of human endeavor. As a recent immigrant who has been blessed by the graciousness, business opportunities, global breadth and hospitality of Americans, I have cause to be thankful for benefiting from the vision and peaceful soldiering of this great country - that seeks to create an atmosphere which fosters harmony and acceptance of all unique talents that emanate from diverse origins. It is with this frame of mind I'll try to share my thought with you all. I do not intend to take side in this on-going debate but let me share with you that not every "foriegner" is a Christian missionary. I was in Hyderabad city last summer along with five other Americans to build a day-care centre for the children of a backward locality. I would like to stress this point because the criterion to help is purely economical and nothing else. These Americans represented an organization that is involved in social work in many countries and at no time do they harp on their religious stance. Infact what I learned through this experience was that social work is actually totally devoid of religious conotations. I too earlier represented the same stereotyped mind-set as some of you seem to be expressing. And in this vein, I may as well share with you that not all foriegners come to India as missionaries all the time. There are several other countries that need help, some of the worst being Romania, Haiti, and Peru; and even as we discuss there are thousands of missionaries working selflessly everywhere to make the world a better place to live. I am humbled to say that for spring vacation in the US starting from march 6th through march 13th we will be building a school at Puerto Prince in Haiti. Again this is a well planned social work that demands loss of personal time and money and absolutely not for "converting people's faith". It is also better to shed some light on the many westerners who have adopted the accalimed paths of the Hindu religion. Can we dare say that they have been forcibly converted. No, not at all and they represent a people who have made their personal choices toward God and religion. So then why, even with a fundamental right to preach, profess, and propogate any religion of one's own choice, the Christians are tainted for their approaches? I fail to understand. Actually a new vision and efforts must be made that utilizes technological tools, that allows for networking personal descipline, and one that boosts religious and communal reorientation inorder to fight all forms of intollerance and discrimination even as we enter the 21st century. Why? We must all remember the fact that there are more sophisticated forms of discrimination and intollerance apart from those that arise out of mere religious apathy. To understand this we must first fight for, and rise above a religion-blind society. It is difficult to make intellectual arguments for a religion-blind society because multi-religion and secular societies will have their antagonistic components. However a begining can at least be made where a human being is judged not on the basis of his/her religion but rather be judged by the content of his/her character. My call to Inn friends is atleast we must make a begining by speaking less divisively and avoiding the staccato of angry verbal exchanges that perhaps contributed to the situation in Gujarat, Orissa, and as I learn today, Calicut. Such exchanges merely serve the ulterior purposes of some political parties and tear through the peaceful environment. We must all appreciate the value of communal harmony and not be content with just toleration of one another's religion. I am sure that when the Jews (from holocaust) and Africans (from slavery) could shatter physical and psychological "iron curtains" and reach out to people with whome they strongly disaggreed earlier, so too can Indians learn to be forgiving, remain noble, foster harmony and be fair-minded in their daily lives. I wish our Inn friends can make the small difference inorder to get going in this direction. As regards the downtrodden and the tribal folk of our country, we must not rest by just assuring equality but till that time when there is an equality of outcome as well. The vision that I believe in would deal with another increasing, yet related, challenge - specifically the hordes of unemployed (soon completely umemployable in the computer market). There is a direct connection between these dispirited youths and the violence in the society. All communities alike should have the responsibility to bring a number of our youth to zones of educational excellence and fulfilling economic activity where they will know, and can see, that they have a stake in the emerging order of things. Call it empowerment, if you may. Finally, travails of our time cannot be belittled as casual and ignorant self-inflicted wounds. Such incidents should help us to rise to the challenge of the day and charting an intellectual and visionary road map for tommorrow. The biggest lesson yet to learn: India must now cut its losses and redefine its course for the soon-to-come 21st century. Many on this side of the world believe that India will be a major player. Indians cannot be naive to the fact that they must be courageous and unwavering in order to fulfill their destiny. Keeping the communities' strategic interests as paramount, will be the first step in this direction I suppose. For all it's worth, these times and the 21st century truly requires people with a King-size vision, temperament and courage. I wish us all the very same. And thanks for your patience and time. Willie Babbili PS: Thankyou Vani for providing an excellent platform for ventilating our opinions. Ever in your service. WB
29th Jan 1999 Customer Care Centre @bom2.vsnl.net.in
Dear Mr Sharma/Aseem Asthana and others, Its indeed a deplorable incident in Orissa and needs unqualified condemnation by one and all. However, mere emotional outbursts both as a reaction or retaliation will not explain the far deeper issues that confront us, both as a nation and as a multi racial society. India has several tracts of underdevelopment in the geographical stretches and several communities in abject poverty,underdevelopment,illiteracy and superstition. Tribal India in Orissa,MP,Bihar is really unimaginably backward. The tribals are the most neglected both as human beings and as communities. Kalhandi Dist( Orissa), Bastar Dist are examples of such backwardness. Superstition and illiteracy resulting in human sacrifices, local witch magic as treatment to medical illnesses are yet prevalent and the communities are moving from generation to generation and are yet not liberated from the basic ills of such undeveloped societies. The government with all the best intentions of development and with the available institutions such as Girijan Coop Societies is doing the utmost with all limitations of funds, infrastructure and above all the political will to do the needful. Its in this context and direction, the NGOs have found the much needed relevence to support and at times even reinforce the governmental efforts. With several central and state governments losing sight and control of such NGOs, the NGOs have overtime grown into an institution by themselves. Funding them were the foreign agencies with their own agendas and strings attached. There are several hues and cries of NGOs with various colors and commitments. The recent killing of a popular volunteer of an NGO in Assam by the militants is unnoticed by several who raise their protest to the Australian missionary's murder in Orissa. If the incident in Orissa is a result of the provocation of of the NGO to the militants in the area, the unfortunate murder of the Australian and his children is the result of the upsurge of religious intolerance or conflict. There are 3 reasons for the recent social and religous unrest mostly being reflected in rural and tribal India : 1. Global reason : Islam and Christianity are in a covert war for supremacy in the next millinium. Both believe that the future leadership of the world populations will be on the minds of men and not over territories. Bosnia,fragmentation of former USSR,most civil wars in Africa republics,internal strife in Indonesia are reflections of such a conflict. However, the Asian replublics such as India,Malaysia are yet not ripe for such an open conflict between the 2 major world religions. Hinduism with a strong and a formidable presence in India is a discomfort to both the world religions. While Islamic onslaught is thru external forces the Christian penetration is thru internal means. However both the world religions are making unabashed attempts to disrupt the religous and social fabric of India. The change of the religious equilibrium in Kerala, North East and now tribal areas in India are the manifestations of such activism of minority religions in India. Its afterall, the local populations and the brotherhood of longlasting relations that will suffer because of the ideological global war of a different kind. As a proponent of India for Indians irrespective of religious beliefs and cultural preferences, its imperitive for Indian non Hindu religious leaders to adapt and adopt to Indian ethos and not seek or succumb to external influences or pressures. This in turn will not upset the majority community in India and India will continue to be an ideal country for secularism. 2. Define and clarify the role of NGOs in India : Social upliftment/community service are welcome by all and every NGOs with positive intentions. However, religious and or cultural change as a mission should be curtailed in practise by the Government. India has to wake up and evaluate the needs of the tribal societies and channelise the efforts and resources to insulate them from negative conflicts which will harm the tribals directly and our national integrity as a result. 3. Foreign Funds for religious/cultural/social upliftment purposes : Its time the Government of India takes a hard look at the flow and direction of foreign funds in to the country. Either as grants,aid or soft loans, we need to closely evaluate the beneficiaries and also the end results of such funds as much as monitor the receipients of such funds on behalf of the foreign principals. Im sure this will reveal much more than what is generally perceived. The role of modern India is to insulate social conflicts and harness the strengths of all religions. The role of the government is to be a tough policemen to reach out against any religious outrage and yet protect the rights and priveleges of both the majority and minority religions. Imagine India in the next millinium with the combined services of the excellent convent schools run by the Christian nuns and priests, the dedication and grit of Ramakrishna Mission, the tolerance and humility exemplified by the Brahma Kumaris, the social commitment of Satya Sai Mission, the vibrancy of the Nirankaris, the sincerity of Aga Khan missions, the help to the downtrodden by the Theresa Mission and with millions of Indians involved in upliftment of India as a country and Indians as a community - a multi facted one and not fragmented. Lets dedicate to a much wider cause of making India an example of secularism and tolerance. Ramkumar
28th Jan 1999 Aditya, the Hindu Skeptió
On 28 Jan 99, George Penner wrote: > sorry for this long response, Innmates. I could not in any conscience > let this go uncommented. While I share the disgust at the dastardly acts, let us not rush to judgement and try to blame some one before we have all the evidence. If history is any indication, most such act are committed by a very few deranged people and it is unwise to blame any one organization. I recall the immediate reaction of people in the wake of Oklahoma bombing to blame the arab terrorists. Even MG Gandhi was killed by a very small group of people who belonged to the same religion that Gandhi did.
29th Jan 1999 rajshekhar roy @hotmail.com
Hello everybody , As someone said we are indeed missing the wood for the trees. Any person in his right mind would condemn what happened in Orissa. However to extrapolate this into saying that this is the fault of the BJP is really taking the cake. Irrespective of how many of us hate it , the fact remains that they have the authority to govern for 5 years and given our experience of the last 50 years they have been as bad or as good depending on your perspective. The work of the Christian missionaries is laudable but when they try to induce people to convert it cannot be supported.It is because we are a free and secular country that we have allowed people of all faiths to practise and preach their religion without any restrictions. Hindu tolerance is being seen as a sign of weakness and the more strident face of Hinduism is in exhibit for that very reason. People who comment on the various Hindu organizations are blindly following the agenda set by the fundamentalists. Contrary to popular belief the hindus are the only truly secular community. We read in a mail that a person was debarred from an employment opportunity as she chose to wear a bindi. Is this an example of secularism ? Or is it secular to force people to read the Bible ? We all know how secular the muslim countries are so I am not getting into it. I am proud to be a hindu and an Indian . However I am ashamed when I see that the Indian Muslims mourn the loss of Pakistan to India. That is exactly how patriotic they are. And we have a captain who has been at the helm for 6 years and has thrashed Pakistan several times despite belonging to the muslim community. It is really sad that the muslims cannot emulate his excellent example. It is only when the minorities will be patriotic and recognize hinduism as the dominant religion that we will have enduring peace. The word secularism is nothing but a ploy to browbeat hindus into accepting that they should be constantly in fear in their own country. For people wanting to convert to other religions the field is wide open. But forcing people to convert will give rise to more such untoward and horrific incidents. Thanks
29th Jan 1999 Krishnan J iyer @bcmfax.net
> it is unwise to blame any one organization. blaming would not help. Don't we need to see why do we treat humans as "untouchables" in ONE particular religion? Mahatma admires the ability of Buddha to expand love to all living beings and here we are..... killing those who spent their life time in treating humans as humans. Fanatics and the skeptics should be put in proper place and they don't deserve what they are. I guess this will reflect in the coming elections, strongly. Krish -
29th Jan 1999 Pia Promina DasGupta Barve @giascl01.vsnl.net.in
Hi, There are many comments on the issue of christian missionaries, conversions etc...... I'd like to share me experiences and views. 1. I studied in a missionary school where I received the finest education and character values, which I hope I have passed on to the next generation. 2. As a little girl, I was so impressed with the whole ceromony of "first communion" I insisted on becoming a catholic. In school, I wanted to attend the religious class. The nuns sent for my maother and told her they would not allow this and she should explain to me that I am not a catholic ... my mother, requested the school to allow me to attend the classes. She said."she'll get fed up in a week's time and quit on her own". That is exactly what happened. 3. As a school senior, our class protested the teaching of Christian scriptures only. We wanted religious teachings of all religions of inida. Our suggestion was accepted. And I am proud to say that even today the school has universal prayer meetings. 4. On missioneries .... we have temples in christian countries, UK, USA, Australia, Gremany... We have temples in Bangla Desh and Pakistan. So many christians have turned to OSHO and "Hare Ram". The Beatles turned to Maharshi..Vivekananda lectured in Chicago to at the Unitarian Church Congress... What is right and what is wrong ? Are we trying our hand at conversion.. Pia.
29th Jan 1999 CUSTOMER CARE CENTRE @bom2.vsnl.net.in
On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 AJAY0PAUL@aol.com wrote: > Hey guys, > Well, if I was a low caste person, I too > would convert to being a Christian or Muslim or any thing else just so that I > get treated as an equal.... they 'convert' for the basic > needs that all humans require -- food, respect, and a sense of worth. > Ajay -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ajay, Before I begin, I wish to state that I mean no personal offence to you and your beliefs. Your reaction, to say the least is simply immature,simplistic and very juvenile. Religion.. is a far more than food,shelter and clothing. It reflects culture, upbringing,a defined value system,a definition of evolution... Im sure U need a lot of reading and understanding to do to comment and conclude on religion let alone conversion of faiths. For your information and starters, it would benefit you to note the following: Man feels himself rather powerless. There are 3 things that cause him fear. One, is what Nature can do to him. Fear of lightning, consequences of an earthquake are to be experienced to be believed. Another reason for fear is what other men can do - killings in war (and nowadays even in peace times and even to peace loving men). And the third, has a great deal to do with religion.,is what his own violent passions may lead him to do- things which he knows in a calm moment he would regret having done. For that reason, most people have a great deal of fear in their lives and religion helps them to be not frightened by those fears. There are several milestones in evolution of man and mankind to which religion has contributed in all societies. Religion caused the Egyptian priests to fix the calender and to note the occurence of eclipses so well that in times they were able to predict them. The discovery of "zero' as the beginning of universe, astrology,astronomy,medicine,statecraft and several subjects have their origins in religion. Remember, that no matter what may happen, religion is to mankind as water is to a fish. Bye Ramkumar
1st Feb 1999 vijay @wmi.co.in
There has been so much talk and written word on secularism and religious conversions. I feel we have not understood the meaning and use of word secular. I suggest following for the country to follow. No religion should be allowed except in the four walls of homes, mandirs,masjids ,churches and gurudwaras, Nothing to be on streets, public places or outside the walls,not even noise pollution by use of loud speakers.No conversions or preaching for conversions unless all religions are equality exposed like a departmental store. You can get what you choose from all that is available in the world. No government sponsored ceremonies, or attendance by government officials in that capacity. No funding . I feel Muslims should have shariat as law for their crimes , Christians their own law andJews,Sikhs,Hindus all should have their own courts to try their people their own religion wants. That will be true democracy, true secularism, true noninterference in religious matters. and all will be confined to their own four walls. How can riots or killings can take place then?
30th Jan 1999 firstname.lastname@example.org
Hello All, In reference to Mr. Wilfred Babbili's comments: Yes, I agree with you. I feel that communal violence is to be abhorred and not tolerated. However, I cannot completely agree with the common assertion that Hindus must be "tolerant" at the expense of our lives just because our religion supposedly says so. This is completely false. In fact it is our very religion that says that unjustice must be destroyed at all costs, and that it is our very duty to uphold Dharma and protect the weak when we are in positions of power. Why is it so difficult to see that when missionaries take advantage of the weak and the disadvantaged in our society that this is NOT a normal conversion? The difference between you and I accepting Christianity and an impoverished tribal in Orissa doing the same is that you and I are in an economic position where we do not face pressure to sacrifice our culture for money, food, clothing, and shelter. We can intellectually rationalize whether Christianity has something better to offer us in terms of spirituality. Unforunately, the disadvantaged in our society have to be concerned with immediate needs for survival. To correct any misunderstandings: I did not once state that all foreigners are "evil", nor did I say that they are all missionaries. My only point was that missionaries in India are heavily aided and abetted by the almighty dollar (read: foreign.) And to respond to Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's analogy between the foreign missionary in India and the ISCKON guru in America, this is an inappropriate comparison. Hare Krishnas in America are not supported by the kind of money that is pumped to fuel conversions in India and other poor countries. Hare Krishnas do not bribe poor Americans with promises of health care, food, and clothing if they convert to Krishna Consciousness. Lastly, the conversion of Hindus in India and the conversion of Christians in America are two entirely separate matters: Hinduism is the belief system INDIGENOUS to India, whereas Christianity is the religion that colonized America, and is NOT indigenous to it. Here is a quote by Swami Vivekananda, a most respected guru in the Hindu tradition. I think it might prove interesting to some of us: "If all India stands up, and takes all the mud that is at the bottom of the Indian Ocean and throws it up against the Western countries, it will not be doing an infinitesimal part of that which you are doing to us..." "It is not true that I am against any religion. It is equally untrue that I am hostile to the Christian missionaries in India. But I protest against certain of their methods of raising money in America. What is meant by those pictures in the school-books for children where the Hindu mother is painted throwing her children to crocodiles in the Ganga? The mother is black, but the baby is painted white, to arouse more sympathy, and get more money. What is meant by those pictures which paint a man burning his wife at a stake with his own hands, so that she may become a ghost and torment the husband's enemy? What is meant by the pictures of huge cars crushing over human beings? The other day a book was published for children in this country (America), where one of these gentlemem tells a narrative of his visit to Calcutta. He says he saw a car running over fanatics in the streets of Calcutta. I have heard one of these gentlemen preach in Memphis that in every village of India there is a pond full of the bones of little babies. What have the Hindus done to these disciples of Christ that every Christian child is taught to call the Hindus 'vile', and 'wretches', and the most horrible devils on earth? Part of the Sunday school education for children here consists in teaching them to hate everybody who is not a Christian, and the Hindus especially, so that, from their very childhood they may subscribe their pennies to the missions... Look again at the books published in Madras against the Hindu religion. If a Hindu writes one such line against the Christian religion, the missionaries will cry fire and vengeance." -Complete Works, Volume 4, pp. 344-5. And I'm sorry to say that much of this nonsense still goes on. Yes, I've been to Sunday school, and I've seen what they say about other religions. Yes, I've heard Pat Robertson speak, urging all Christians to pump money into missionary efforts in India, as India is "a sea of ignorance" and within every Hindu "there is a Christian crying for help." So please don't try to tell me that I am talking out of my head; I've seen and read this stuff first-hand. I am willing to elaborate on every point I've made. The pseudo-secularists on this mailing list can try to take apart my argument bit by bit, if they wish to try. I hope this discussion is fruitful for all of us and we all learn something in the process. Look forward to hearing your responses, Vasant Sharma.
31st Jan 1999 email@example.com
Hello all, here is an extremely relevant article by Dushyant Vishwanathan, of UC Irvine. Read it carefully, as it may make you think. Since we are all debating this incident, perhaps we should better acquaint ourselves with the details. -Vasant Sharma P.S. If any one would like to respond to Dushyant, please do so...I will froward any and all responses regarding this to him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Any of you "secularists" or "marxists" or anyone else condemning the RSS and other dharmin groups for the Christian violence, read this carefully, then we'll talk. And I'd like to hear if anyone who calls themselves an Indian would find fault in the killing of that Australian proselytizer. You really should stop reading what the western media has to say about Hinduism and Indian affairs. dushyant -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (From a Oriya Weekly from Cuttack, Orissa, on Jan 26, 1999.) Australian Father Burnt Alive: Spot Report from Manoharpur Manoharpur is a remote village of Keonjhar district, Odisha which is 100 kms from district headquarter Keonjhargarh, 46 kms from the sub-divisional head quarter Anandapur. It is very poorly communicated. It is border village of both Mayurbhanj and Keonjhar district. These two sister districts were ruled by Bhanja dynasty, having native tribes of Bhuyans, Santhals and Majhis. These tribes are very much cultured and disciplined. Several times they revolted against injustice and foreign rule. They pray God in the name of nature, plants and soil (Motherland) & natural resources are plenty till today. Always these tribes think themselves as the kingmaker and saviour of royal dynasty. Graham Stewart Steins Australian father Graham Steins came to Odisha in Jan 1965. He established his centre at Baripada the dist. Head quarter of Mayurbhanj, famous as a cultured town of mother Odisha. Graham started his missionary work through Evangelical Mission, Baptist Church (at Baripada), World Vision of India with a coverage of leprosy centre at Baripada which is not at all a leprosy prone area. In 1980 he established a missionary Church (Thatched house) at Manoharpur (Kacha Sahi) about 150 kms from Baripada, and recently VRO and NGO is suspected to be working for conversion. His family consisted of Mr. Graham Stewart Steins (55), his wife-Glades Steins (45), daughter Easter (13), son Philips Steins (12) & Timoti Steins (9). Though Steins family have been staying here since last 34 years they did not take the citizenship of India. Every time administration was in difficult position to deal him as he stayed in Mayurbhanj dist, but operating in Keonjhar district. Conversion Started The Baripada Mission Church leader is Nimain Hansda. His sister got married to Shyam Marandi of Manoharpur and became Martha Marandi. Through her Graham started converting Hindu Santhals (tribe) in Manoharpur and adjacent area. Latest position of converted Santhals and Kolha in that area - (which was 100% non-Christian in 1980): Manoharpur - 24 families, Sanakusapada - 6, Tulasibani - 15, Baniajodi - 3, Palabani - 3, Pathaveda - 5. Now 56 families were converted at a time. Conversion Process Contact persons gather them in Jungle Camp for 3-4 days, allow all young girls & boys to stay together, perform marriages, preach Bible, show video and audio films of Jesus Christ and finally convert them through Duban. This years' Jungle Camp (Mela) This year Graham Steins organised Jungle camp from Jan 20 to 24th, 1999. Everyday there was a feast of meat and rice with local alcoholic preparation Handia. Massive drive of meetings and showing of films were conducted for 3 to 4 days. 400 people were targeted to be converted on 24th Jan. 56 families were converted on 22nd. Every thing was under the leadership of Graham Stewart Steins and his battalion of 10 preachers from Cuttack and Baripada. Tension Due to the activities of Graham there was tension from 1981. The then collector Fanibhushan Dash reported concern over conversion and rising tension among Santhals. Every year tribes perform Maker Sankranti (Jan 14) and Raja Sankranti (Jun 14-16) with pump and ceremony. But every year this was being opposed by converted Christians by performing ploughing etc., which is a act of sin in those Sankranti as per their tradition. This year also that happened. So administration was compelled since 10-15 years to deploy police force during those Hindu functions in that locality every year. Leadership And therefore self declared leadership was developed in each episode of group clashes (Regd. FIR, cases are there in every year against each other) between converted and non-converted Santhals and Kolhas. Which Dara Singh assumed leadership of Santhals, Shyam Sundar Marandi, Ragadi Sara and youngster Salman Marandi took the leadership of Santhal Christians. Politics This area is a traditional stronghold of Congress. Two eminent ministers Sri Jaydev Jena (Mass Education) and Niranjan Pattnaik (Industry & Mines) belong to the same sub-division Anandpur, in this J. B. Pattnaik ministry. Dara Singh having many warrants against him in police stations of the district was still active under the political safe-arm of this ministers, which is a known fact. This fact is going to be covered in the name of Bajrang Dal, conspired by the congress ministry, by police DGP's statement. Madhavrao Scindia instigated the villagers to tell the name of Bajrang Dal. He also assured the backing of congress during his recent tour of the affected area. During last four years almost all disturbances of Keonjhar district is only because of the two infighting groups of the ruling party led by two ministers, is an open secret. For reference, Mr Niranjan Pattnaik happens to be a close relative of the chief minister Mr Janaki Ballava Pattnaik and Mr Jaydev Jena belongs to the camp deputy Chief Minister, Basanta Biswal. That dreadful Night: During the third week of Jan 1999, Graham Steins and his 10 preachers, including Australian Gilbert Venj, two lectures from Cuttack namely Subhankar Ghosh and Rajendra Swain, and others from Baripada, conducted a massive tour and propaganda in that area, conducting village meetings, showing films regarding Jesus Christ, and mobilising many people to be converted. It resulted an undercurrent of protest and tension among the Santhals. The usual process of conversion the 'jungle camp' started from 20th inside the temporary thatched house constructed specially for the converts. In the midday of 22nd, the conversion of 56 families and the declaration of further target of converting 200 camp mates on 24th spread fire of revolt among the Santhals very rapidly in many adjacent villages. Many angry Santhals and Kolhas gathered in that area in the midnight as a suo motto eruption of their anger of last 18 years, when the jungle camp was sleeping. The angry mob targeted the vehicles ORM-1208 and ORM-952, which carried the preachers conducting the massive tour, started damaging them. By this time Graham, who was sleeping inside ORM-1208, covered with bundles of dry straw, woke up and threatened the mob with pistol firing. Seeing the pistol the mob took it as a challenge and attacked him with arrow and finally burnt the vehicle. The dry bundles of straw made it easy to burn the vehicle and difficult for Graham Steins to come out with his two sons, resulting the fearful death of all of them. And many questions: 1- Whether the organisers of Jungle camp in formed the authority about the camp or not? 2- Jungle camp going on and no police protection, why? 3- Police deployment in every Raja Sankranti and Makar Sankranti but why not during the jungle camp 4- Only Graham was attacked and not the church or the other Christians, why? 5- No local leader and jungle camp mates came for rescue? 6- Why the mob was not opposed? 7- Where the other preachers were, doing what? 8- As per the Christians 20 to 80 persons came to attack, which can be countered easily by the jungle camp mates, which did not happen, why? 9- Why only ORM-1208 was covered with dray straw? 10- The driver of other vehicle ORM-952 not inside, why? 11- If people left for jungles (as per Christians) and others were inside their closed house, then why the mob did not attack anybody having a free hand for that? 12- Nobody on behalf of the Christian rushed to the police station, why? 13- Why police reached the spot the next day morning, 9 hours after the incident? 14- Is there any previous groupism between the local and non Indian Christian? 15- Is there any support for this incident from the local Christian leaders due to leadership, administrative and financial questions? 16- According to medical authorities Keonjhar and Mayurbhanj district are not at all in the map of leprosy prone area of the state. Then why Graham started a leprosy center there? 17- Whether service to Santhals disconnect them socially from other Santhals that hurt them since last long? 18- Is it an international conspiracy of creating communal disturbances involving Christians and pressurising from western white countries to dethrone this Vajpayee led Government? 19- Whether English media particularly the New Indian Express is a handy work of that conspiracy and so giving such preplanned baseless statement involving VHP & Bajrang Dal ? 20- Though law and order is a state chapter, why some political groups and leaders blaming the central Government? Are they acting as per the conspiracy? 21- As a part of that conspiracy the state administration is not acting as per the Freedom of Religion Act (1969), Orissa. 22- Also the police authority acting to that international conspiracy, stating the involvement of Bajrang Dal without visualising the spot and the incident. Condemnations: 1- Almost all national and regional political parties have condemned this cruel act including BJP, BJD and Congress. 2- Leftist wagon and Janata Dal condemned this act but traditionally blamed RSS, VHP & Bajrang Dal. 3- RSS, VHP & Bajrang Dal having no organisational works in that area, then why to blame them? 4- Many organisations also condemned this heinous crime, of which state RSS, VHP & Bajrang Dal are in the fore front. A special report by Shri Subash Chouhan, RASTRADEEP, Narisangha Sadan Chhak, Buxi Bazar, Cuttack 753 001. Tel: (0671) 60 1552.
31st Jan 1999 Udhay Shankar N @pobox.com
>From: CUSTOMER CARE CENTRE
>The discovery of "zero' >as the beginning of universe, astrology,astronomy,medicine,statecraft >and several subjects have their origins in religion. And would you want to substantiate this sweeping statement with any facts, references or citations, or is this too much to ask ? >Remember, that no matter what may happen, religion is to mankind as water >is to a fish. I am reminded of Shaw's remark in this context: A man without Religion is like a fish without a bicycle. A flat statement here: Religion has _nothing whatsoever_ to do with theism. The most empirically appropriate description of Religion I've seen is from a song which calls it "recipe for hate". Do not bother to respond unless you know what is being referred to here. Udhay ~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~* Udhay Shankar N, Bangalore, India http://www.pobox.com/~udhay finger for public key
1st Feb 1999 K.Varatharajan @igcar.ernet.in
Dear Mr. Vijay, I am able to understand your feelings. How to implement your noble ideas? Have emailed this message to persons holding key positions like President, Prime Minister, Chief Ministers, Chief Justices of High Courts, Chief Justice of Supreme Court and renowned social servants in the country. I am afraid that unless all the above personalities can join to venture to open the departmental stores, you have described, real democracy in conjunction with real secularism is impossible. With kind regards, Yours truly K.Varatharajan
1st Feb 1999 Chief Access Facilitator @webindia.com
I strongly belive in god. I dont belive in religion. I also belive god was made by man. What with all this madness and things. Belif about od is ok. But such madness is a no no no... R Krishnan CAF - Chief Access Facilitator WebIndia - Welcome to Business in India http://www.webindia.com/
2nd Feb 1999 CUSTOMER CARE CENTRE @bom2.vsnl.net.in
Dear Mr Sharma, Thank you for the excellent report on ground details of the whole episode. Kindly extend my sincere appreciation to Mr Dushyant Viswanathan for the elaboration of the antecedents and realties of the situation. Obviously, all attempts to change the demographic profile of innocent and tribal India thru inducements should be condemned and resisted by all religions. And use of coercive and psychological pressure for conversions should be sternly dealt with by the law enforcing agencies. As I mentioned in my earlier writings on the subject, a thorough probe is needed to study the influence of foreign funds, their direction, the beneficiary profile and pattern of their functioning. Its indeed a pity to note the poor reporting and qualitative content of most of the media reports on the subject. Even Star Television with its glitter and savvy presentation failed to project the realities as much as Mr Dushyant Viswanathan has done. This is to request Mr Viswanathan to monitor the developing events and report on the same as we can derive a lot of experience in understanding the fallout of this incident on the community. Thanks Mr Sharma for the appropriate contribution. I also wish to thank Ms Vani and the administrators of this forum for their support to present this debate and also enabling to raise the quality of the debate by their choice of presentations from the members. Ramkumar
2nd Feb 1999 Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com
>Any of you "secularists" or "Marxists" or anyone else condemning the >RSS >and other dharmin groups for the Christian violence, read this >carefully, then we'll talk. And I'd like to hear if anyone who calls themselves >an Indian would find fault in the killing of that Australian >proselytizer. You really should stop reading what the western media has to say >about Hinduism and Indian affairs. Well, I do not think any body has to necessarily fit to the definitions of "secularists" or "Marxists" if he/she condemns such inhuman and barbarous killing of another human being with his two young sons. Every human being has a right to live irrespective of his religious faith and whatever he does as the law of the land permits. So what if he was a proselytizer. If anybody has found the Australian was involved in unlawful conversion of the Hindus, that could have been dealt in legal forum. That would have far reaching effect on the society. I wonder if all the Indian newspaper and magazines come under western media or what! Does the sender advise us that we should read the mouthpiece of the RSS "Rastradeep" alone to get the correct information about such incidents and believe it? >(From a Oriya Weekly from Cuttack, Orissa, on Jan 26, 1999.) "Rastradeep" is not an Oriya weekly in the right sense. It is the mouthpiece of RSS (may be appearing in Oriya). I wonder if is it deliberate to mention the article is from an Oriya Weekly at the beginning and "Rastradeep" at the end, to draw attention of the list! >A special report by Shri Subash Chouhan,RASTRADEEP, Narisangha Sadan Chhak, Buxi >Bazar, >Cuttack 753 001. Tel:(0671) 60 1552. I would like to point out a few factual errors in the article for kind notice of all: >16- According to medical authorities Keonjhar and Mayurbhanj district are >not at all in the map of leprosy prone area of the state. Then >why Graham started a leprosy center there? Graham did not start the leprosy home. It was set up 100 years ago with the patronage of then erstwhile ruler (Maharaja) of Mayurbhanj. If there was no leprosy patient in Mayurbhanj why has it been there for last 100 years. From when our medical authorities have started mapping different disease zones in the backward areas of Orissa, when no doctor (even fresh medical graduates) wish to get posted in such tribal/rural areas! >21- As a part of that conspiracy the state administration is not >acting as per the Freedom of Religion Act (1969), Orissa. In the event of inaction of State Administration, is it not responsibility of the so-called protectors of Hinduism to take the matter to the right forum. Has there been a single case filed by any of those groups regarding violation of the act. As I understand from the article, the reporter has tried compiling convenient rumors about the incident to establish that the Australian deserved the barbarous killing, however he has taken care in pointing out that RSS has also in forefront in condemning such incident. I can not imagine the days when every Indian start depending on "Rastradeep" to
2nd Feb 1999 Aseem Asthana @bom4.vsnl.net.in
Hello there once again, ** Mr Sharma wrote ** > I cannot completely agree with the common assertion that Hindus must be "tolerant" at the > expense of our lives Danger of life, expence of life???????? > here we do not face pressure to sacrifice our culture for money, food, clothing, and shelter. Is there any culture without food, shelter and clothing. Or as the Star news reported, when a man and a woman were thrown out of the village with the lady being labeled as a witch! Or is this a halucination of the Western media. You say that money is coming from foreign for Christian missionaries and that no money is being given to Hare Krishna's. You are claiming both the point, for you and against Christians. And no proof for any of them. > Lastly, the conversion of Hindus in India and the conversion of >Christians in America are two entirely separate matters: Hinduism is the belief > system INDIGENOUS to India, whereas Christianity is the religion that colonized >America, and is NOT indigenous to it. So there faith is lesser to Indian faith? You seem to be in the grip of a superiority complex. American faith is inferior. And anybody who is opposed to your view point is a pseudo-secularist. Did it occur to you that the act in Orissa was pseudo-Human and pseudo-hindu? Bye, Aseem. Aseem Asthana, 239 A, New Swarg Mandir, Mhow 453441, MP, India. Final Yr, Comp Sc. Sri Govindram Sekseria Institute of Technology, 23, Park Rd, Indore. MP. India.
2nd Feb 1999 Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com
This refers to Vasant Sharmas recent mail on the subject: >However, I cannot completely agree with the common >assertion that Hindus must be "tolerant" at the expense of our lives just >because our religion supposedly says so. This is completely >false. In fact it is our very religion that says that unjustice must be >destroyed at all costs, and that it is our very duty to uphold Dharma and protect the >weak when we are in positions of power. Why is it so difficult to see that >when missionaries take advantage of the weak and the disadvantaged in our >society that this is NOT a normal conversion? If we are really concerned about those weak and disadvantaged people in our society, this can not be solved through hatred towards missionaries. Rather we Hindus should stop building more temples (there are enough already) and performing more rituals (to wash our sins); rather we should develop a social mechanism where the problems of such deprived section of the people can be addressed. We should not ignore how much injustice we (strong and advantaged Hindus) are doing to those poor people by not addressing their problems for centuries. Mere sheding crocodile tears would do no good to those unfortunate people. How can we expect from those people to uphold their Dharma when they cant manage a square meal in a day? More over the growing greediness and materialism practiced by we educated and well to do people, have made their life more difficult. With out realizing such inherent problem with the issue the neo-Hindus want to import stupid concept like "Jihad" from other religion and want us to believe that they are doing a big service to our religion. >The difference between you and I accepting Christianity and an >impoverished tribal in Orissa doing the same is that you and I are in an economic >position where we do not face pressure to sacrifice our culture for money, >food, clothing, and shelter. We can intellectually rationalize whether >Christianity has something better to offer us in terms of >spirituality. Unforunately, the disadvantaged in our society have to be >concerned with immediate needs for survival. Such comments are expected from those people who have never experienced poverty (or never starved to be precise!). Food, clothing and shelter are the basic needs for any human being to survive on this Earth. Is it unfortunate (or crime!) that the disadvantaged section in our society, are more concerned with immediate needs of survival? It means they should not be concerned about their survival, they should simply perish from this Earth for making our neo-Hindus proud of their religion! I am really sad to note how selfish and cruel the so-called proud Hindus can become to uphold their Dharma. As a matter of fact we all know the so-called "you and I" are more concerned about the money and their material needs. Otherwise why most of our highly educated people are after a job in a developed country. They can sacrifice anything for dollars and so-called professional satisfaction. So we have no right to look down those unfortunate people. In fact "you and I" are responsible to some extent for their plight. >To correct any misunderstandings: I did not once state that all >foreigners are "evil", nor did I say that they are all missionaries. My only point >was that missionaries in India are heavily aided and abetted by the almighty >dollar (read: >foreign.) And to respond to Mr. Kedar Mahapatra's >analogy between the foreign missionary in India and the ISCKON guru in >America, this is an inappropriate comparison. Hare Krishnas in America >are not supported by the kind of money that is pumped to fuel conversions >in India and other poor countries. Hare Krishnas do not bribe poor >Americans with promises of health care, food, and clothing if they >convert to Krishna Consciousness. Lastly, the conversion of Hindus in >India and the conversion of Christians in America are two entirely >separate matters: Hinduism is the belief system INDIGENOUS to India, >whereas Christianity is the religion that colonized America, and is NOT >indigenous to it. I have spent my childhood in one of the tribal areas of Orissa. I have strong reason to believe the Hinduism is also not indigenous to the tribal people. They have their own way of practicing religious faith, which is distinctly different than our Hindu rituals. So in a sense we Hindus are responsible for destroying their unique culture and way of life by imposing our own. Of course unlike Christians we Hindus have not lured them by doing social service, rather they have naturally accepted it for their survival. I have grown up seeing how badly those tribal people being exploited by so called civilized people. I dont believe we Hindus (or Indians) have not enough money to pursue social service for the needy Indians. In fact I would very much appreciate if somebody can compare the amount received every year by Christian missionaries in India for their activities and the donation received annually in the HUNDI of the Tirumala Temple. I would not be surprised if the amount for missionary activity is a just a fraction of the income of Tirumala temple alone. So money is not the only reason for such activities. It is the religious zeal that drives Christian to do such social service for the poor, which may ultimately lead to conversion. But in case of our indigenous religion Hinduism, we are more bothered about adding more gold ornaments to our idols rather spending the money for people living in abject poverty. So whom should we blame! >Here is a quote by Swami Vivekananda, a most respected guru in the Hindu tradition. I think it might prove interesting to some of us: >"If all India stands up, and takes all the mud that is at the bottom >of the Indian Ocean and throws it up against the Western countries, it will >not be doing An infinitesimal part of that which you are doing to us..." "It is >not true that I am against any religion. It is equally untrue that I am >hostile to the Christian missionaries in India. But I protest against certain of >their methods of raising money in America. What is meant by those >pictures in the school-books for children where the Hindu mother is >painted throwing her children to crocodiles in the Ganga? The mother is >black, but the baby is painted white, to arouse more sympathy, and get >more money. What is meant by those pictures which paint a man burning >his wife at a stake with his own hands, so that she may become a ghost >and torment the husband's enemy? What is meant by the pictures of huge >cars crushing over human beings? The other day a book was published for >children in this country (America), where one of these gentlemem tells a >narrative of his visit to Calcutta. He says he saw a car running over >fanatics in the streets of Calcutta. I have heard one of these gentlemen >preach in Memphis that in every village of India there is a pond full of >the bones of little babies. What have the Hindus done to these disciples >of Christ that every Christian child is taught to call the Hindus 'vile', >and 'wretches', and the most horrible devils on earth? Part of the >Sunday school education for children here consists in teaching them to >hate everybody who is not a Christian, and the Hindus especially, so >that, from their very childhood they may subscribe their pennies to the >missions... Look again at the books published in Madras against the Hindu >religion. If a Hindu writes one such line against the Christian religion, >the missionaries will cry fire and vengeance." -Complete Works, Volume 4, >pp. 344-5. I wonder why people take help of such outdated quote of Swami Vivekananda to make their point. I think these days Western societies, are not so hostile to Hinduism. It is apparent from the growing popularity of Hindu religion, culture, food, traditional medicine, Yoga in general and the organization/people such as ISKON and Mahesh yogi in particular. Moreover, we have to consider the time when Swami Vivekananda referred the above situation. What was the level of literacy and quality of life and the obsession of people towards religion prevailed in Western society those days! Definitely there has been a big change in perception in West about India and Indian culture. It is evident from the list of titles on serious aspects of Indian culture and Hinduism one would find in Amazon.com, written by western scholars. On the contrary we are still living in a society where many of our fellow citizens live in abject poverty and the so-called cultured, educated people propagating casteism and religious fanaticism. It would also be proper to go through the quotes of Swami Vivekananda on the Hindu society of those days and analyze has there been any change in our mindset. >And I'm sorry to say that much of this nonsense still goes on. Yes, >I've been to Sunday school, and I've seen what they say about other religions. >Yes, I've heard Pat Robertson speak, urging all Christians to pump >money into missionary efforts in India, as India is "a sea of >ignorance" and within every Hindu "there is a Christian crying for >help." So please don't try to tell me that I am talking out of my >head; I've seen and read this stuff first-hand. So, are not those proud fanatical Hindus consolidating the effort of those Christian zealots by committing the cowardice and barbaric crimes such as the one recently happened in Orissa! >I am willing to elaborate on every point I've made. The >pseudo-secularists on this mailing list can try to take apart my argument bit by bit, if >they wish to try. I hope this discussion is fruitful for all of us and >we all learn something in the process. If those who express their views against the Hind
5th Feb 1999 Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com
This refers to Mr.Ramkumar's recent mail: >Obviously, all attempts to change the demographic profile of innocent >and tribal India through inducements should be condemned and resisted by >all religions. And use of coercive and psychological pressure for >conversions should be sternly dealt with by the law enforcing agencies. We must also try to look at the demographic profile of the innocent and tribal India, in the background of last fifty years of our colonial freedom. How much have we succeeded in providing them descent human life through all those tribal development schemes of both central and state governments! Many statistics and surveys have already established that we have miserably failed to provide them basic living condition despite all those schemes funded through our own money as well as some foreign aids (through government). Should we not be concerned about the politician-bureaucracy-forest based entrepreneurs' nexus, which have systematically exploited these innocent tribal people, depriving them of their livelihood? After all how can we boast ourselves as a proud and strong nation ignoring our tribal fellow-citizens? They also deserve descent human life like any other citizen in
5th Feb 1999 AJAY0PAUL @aol.com
Very good reasoning. The worst thing any Hindu can do it try to ape the Christian right wing organizations. Hinduism has not needed the RSS and it's unlawful bunch for over 6000-5000 years, and I seriously doubt that it (Hinduism) needs it now. Ajay
6th Feb 1999 Dushyant Arun Viswanathan
Hinduism doesnt need the RSS? Wow; what nonsensical misinformation people have circulated about the RSS!! The RSS is the largest social work organization in India; they have thousands of projects, from tribal develpment to village self-reliance programs, to women empowerment. They have selfless workers, nameless workers, who every day use their specialization (whether it be medecine, teaching, occupational therapy, or psychology) to help people, the lower classes, the scheduled classes, etc. No one in India is doing the kind of work the RSS is doing, even though they are quite underfunded compared to Christian relief groups. At this point, if you have read about RSS seva programs, and you still think Hindus (Indians) dont need the Sangh Parivar, you are little more than a traitor. Dushyant To inform you, check out www.idrf.org for more information about RSS social work.
7th Feb 1999 Kedar N. Mahapatra @hotmail.com
Dear friends, This refers to the recent mail from Mr. Vasant Sharma on the subject: "communal" issue. >Hello all, here is an extremely relevant article by Dushyant >Vishwanathan, of UC Irvine. Read it carefully, as it may make you think. Since we are all debating >this incident, perhaps we should better acquaint ourselves with the details. >-Vasant Sharma >P.S. If any one would like to respond to Dushyant, please do so...I >will froward any and all responses regarding this to him. I have already sent a mail to the list pointing out the fact that the article passed by Mr. Sharma is not by Dushyant Vishwanathan, of UC Irvine, the reporter is Shri Subash Chouhan of RASTRADEEP (mouthpiece of RSS). I noticed the name of the reporter at the end of the article from Mr. Sharma's mail. Meanwhile I just happened to see an article (STAINES' KILLING: Burning Shame by Ruben Banerjee) in the current issue (February 08 1998) of "India Today", and I found out further that Shri Subash Chouhan, the so-called reporter is also the convener of "State Hindu Jagran Samukhya" that sounds like a radical Hindu organization (may be a part of Sangha Parivar). The related excerpt from "India Today" is as follows: " Graham was never into conversions. All he did was to spread the message of the Lord," insists widow Glades. Others, however, believe that his preaching often led to conversions. "He was killed because he was proselytising. People might have killed him in a fit of rage," says state Hindu Jagran Samukhya convener Subhash Chauhan. " Considering the affiliation of Mr. Chauhan one can easily make out how objective his reporting could be. It is also surprising to note the tone of Mr. Dushyant Vishwanathan's (he is yet to be introduced to the list) message that has been passed by Mr. Sharma to the list: >Any of you "secularists" or "marxists" or anyone else condemning the >RSS and other dharmin groups for the Christian violence, read this >carefully, then we'll talk. And I'd like to hear if anyone who calls >themselves an Indian would find fault in the killing of that Australian >proselytizer. You really should stop reading what the western media has to >say about Hinduism and Indian affairs. >dushyant It would be nice if this wonderful forum is not used to fool the members of the list by passing some deliberate and biased reports to inf
8th Feb 1999 krishna kumar @hotmail.com
seen your message. Actually stains is killed by a group of anti-social elements.main culprit dhara singh is supported by congress(i),it's learnt. there are a no. of cases against him ,but no action had taken .that is, the state govt. backing him and using him to meet their own political ends. In that murder no hindu organizations are involved, in fact these orgs. have no units in that area.
8th Feb 1999 Dushyant Arun Viswanathan @ea.oac.uci.edu
i think mr. sharma made it clear that he was forwarding an article to the list that i had sent him. i am a college student in the US. that article was written by someone in India. any common sense could see that i didnt write that article, but had forwarded it to mr. sharma. no intended deception is involved here. you need an introduction? my name is dushyant. hello.
10th Feb 1999 rajshekhar roy @hotmail.com
Dear all , Where has reason and objectivity gone ? We seem to have two sides in this debate both are entrenched in their positions. However the truth is probably somewhere in between. I think it is a crying shame that people who have no idea about RSS deem themselves fit to pass judgements on the movement. I am not a radical or fanatic hindu nor do I have links with any political organization. However one of my activities some time back was to organize blood donation camps. I came in touch with many RSS people and found them to be excellent persons , steeped in ideology , caring for social good and sacrificing all material and other comforts to work in an area that they beel committed about. To brand all these people as anti secular and minority haters just because it is fashionable is extremely unfair and unfortunate. I think of late secularism has come to mean that hindus should give way to everything from imperial demolition of temples to induced conversion in the name of tolerance. Anytime a crime is committed against a member of the minority community the media and the so called secular people join the bandwagon and claim that it is the RSS/BJP who are behind it without even bothering to find out the facts of the case. Is it surprising then that they end up with egg on their face most of the time ? Countless crimes are committed against the hindus in India and no one seems to have the time to write about these. This is not a religious issue at all. The issue is highly politicized and the heartening fact is that these people are being exposed now. The congress for all its motherhood statements cannot maintain basic law and order situation in Orissa where the situation is infinitely worse than in Gujrat. As I said in an earlier note the BJP is in power as people voted for it. It is really a joke when a party with 140 seats claims that they are not interested in power - that too with a leader who is actively involved in a payment case that we all know about.No amount of these stupid propaganda by the so called secularists is going to change the fact that hindus and hinduism will live in its own terms be it in the area of constructing the temple or protesting against induced conversions. Thanks
10th Feb 1999 Ram Narayanan @worldnet.att.net
The Christian Establishment has a clearly focused plan "to deliver India's millions from the darkness of Hinduism" (This quote is from one of their publications in America). This publication describes at length the efforts of Christian missionaries to convert "the tens of millions who still wander in darkness in India's Hindi belt". Ram Narayanan
11th Feb 1999 Vivek Malpani @indrayani.com
RSS info Also at " http://www.rss.org/rss/www " vivek malpani
12th Feb 1999 Sudhir Sarup @giasdl01.vsnl.net.in
I fully agree with the submission of Mr. Krishna Kumar and wish to add that such directed condemnations are not required unless one is fully acquinted with the facts. While I have all the sympathies with berieved family, we must not get emotional to use this forum for condeming one or the other community. Surprised to note that not even one posting has been made to condemn the rash drunken driving & killings by the youths in their BMW last month. That issue is ofa serious concern for our society. Thanks Sarup
14th Feb 1999 Aseem Asthana @bom4.vsnl.net.in
> I fully agree with the submission of Mr. Krishna Kumar and wish to add >that such directed condemnations are not required unless one is fully >acquinted with the facts. No one ever will come to know the whole truth. If we all sat waiting for the absolute truth to come out then we might be sitting for ever to take most of our actions. We all act, in almost all the cases on information that we deem to be coming from a reliable source and adequate for our purposes. With all due respect, even you have not acted with being not fully acquinted with the facts. You ASSUMED that the people who responded were not acquinted with the facts. >While I have all the sympathies with berieved family, we must not get >emotional to use this forum for condeming one or the other community. As far as I know, there have been no condemnations against any community - either Hindu or Christian. All that was said was agaist the act and the kind of people who did the act. >Surprised to note that not even one posting has been made to condemn the >rash drunken driving & killings by the youths in their BMW last month. Religious intolerance is of a more serious concern than bad driving by some brats. Aseem. Aseem Asthana, 239 A, New Swarg Mandir, Mhow 453441, MP, India. Final Yr, Comp Sc. Sri Govindram Sekseria Institute of Technology, 23, Park Rd, Indore. MP. India.