Israeli and Indian democracies compared
20th May 1999
Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic @bc.seflin.org
I find it very interesting to compare the progress of democracy in India
and Israel since both were established almost same time.
Israel has been through several elections like India but the difference
lies in the availability of new leaders. The new leader Barak belongs to
the same party as the assassinated leader Rabin. Sonia Gandhi is also
claiming the leadership after the assassinations of her husband and
mother-in-law. However, the widow of Rabin did not claim the leadership
as she could have done.
The true test of democracy is being able to nurture and find new
leadership on demand and it is in this aspect as India has failed
miserably. We have not been able to develop any route for new leaders
except by nepotism.
Whether Sonia was born in India or not is immaterial but the inability
of Congress to find another leader to replaced a dead one is so
despicable.
If Sonia wins the election and loses her life in the tradition of her
dynasty, will they be able to find some one else other than Prianka (aka
Bianca) and Rahul (aka Raoul), that is the million dollar question.
Is India a democracy or monarchy where inheritance is by blood line
alone?
21st May 1999
neeraj chaturvedi @hotmail.com
Aditya,
congrats... you are the first person to raise the real question...
We INDAINS should be broadminded to accept foreign born/foreigner to accept
as our PM/CM ... US or France or ITALY are not our GURU to follow...
The question is ????? one should become PrimeMinister bcos he/she is
wife/husband/daughter/son of someone. Had sonia not married to rajiv..or had
rajiv not been son of Indira Gandhi... could they be PM.. (well BJP is not
left....Vasundhara Raje sindhia is Minister only bcos she is a daughter of
some royal family)...
This proves the theory that in india ... If you are rich, you will remain
rich and if you are poor you will remain .... follows newton's law of
inertia without any friction, doesnt matter how intelligent/dumb you are.
This gives enough reasons, why we shouldnt have democracy or freedom. We are
born mind slaves ... and remain slaves ... no one is required to rule
us...we find our SAHEB easily... we can not live without our SAHEB....
bye
neeraj
24th May 1999
[email protected]
Excuse me if I am drifting off-topic, but I would like to know how
many of the people would actually know that Priyanka's name is Bianca and
Rahul's name is Raoul. From what I've witnessed the Indian populace seems
to be misled by a lot-many things, there seems to be a shroud of secrecy
with the Gandhi clan at all places.
C
PS: I've also heard (by word of mouth) that Rajiv had at a time changed
his name to Roberto, although I can't ensure it's validity.
25th May 1999
D.Haldar @pobox.com
Looks like Gandhi bashing has become fashionable to the extent that
disinformation is rampant like your derivation and distortion of names.
try to be more toleranr my friend. Sangh Parivar will not take anywhere but
disaster. Believe me!
DHaldar
27th May 1999
Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic @bc.seflin.org
I do not support sangh parivar nor did I do anyone's bashing. If you
read my message with attention you would have seen that my observation
was about the shameful lack of any consciousness where new leaders can
be found to lead the country unlike Israel where they can always find
another leader for the fallen ones and no one is indispensable. That is
the way it should be in a democracy and I doubt if India can really
claim to be democracy. It acts more like a monarchy where leaders are
found in a dynasty both at national and state levels.
As to the derivation of the names, how many Indian girls have you heard
with name Priyanka and an attempt to disguise the Christian name appears
very plausible. In any case my point was to warn about the chances of
her
becoming the next PM after Sonia. There is nothing wrong with naming
your children so that their names can fit two cultures since many Indian
in USA have given names lie Dave (Dev), Anita etc which can be
pronounced more easily by their school mates.
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #: 209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
Grasshoppotamus: A creature that can leap to tremendous
heights....once.
It is a shame that Indians politicians and electorate cannot find any
leaders and have to rely on a dynasty, any dynasty.
28th May 1999
nkg @del2.vsnl.net.in
Yes, it is right that this country was ruled by non-BJP parties for 50 years
but can you tell the age of BJP. All its leaders have come from different
parties or you can say most of them are rolling stones. They move from one
party to another for power.
To lead a country besides everything you need an intimidating personality
and charisma. How many leaders in BJP do you believe have this.
Why to hate a family which produces so many leaders who can sacrifice their
lives for the country.
Naresh
29th May 1999
Vinay Kumar @accessworldwide.com
Sorry to butt in like this. Isn't this amazing. RSS and BJP have been made
the butt of all ills happening in this country while this country was ruled
by non-BJP parties for nearly the whole period of 50 years.
BJP and RSS must really be something to have not only survived but grown
despite being pushed down by one and all. I wonder what that is. Not even
the communist could survive despite being in power in major countries
worldwide.
At the same time, the price a person pays for being in public is having no
personal life, yet the Gandhi family wants to have the cake and eat it too.
If they can attempt to blow apart other people's credentials, don't others
have a right to ask for details of this family. Specially when we want them
to head the country. Or having the surname Gandhi gives a person a super
shield (read as halo) that ensures that they do not have to explain
anything to the country that they want to lead.
Amazing contradiction.
Vinay
29th May 1999
organo chemicals @ad1.vsnl.net.in
Dear naresh
Excuse me if I am hurting your thoughts, But do you think that
Personality and Charishma are the primary requirement to Handle the
whole nation, the integrity and the honesty does not count. Just have a
glance at the corruption during the congress rule which we all know and
there are many which only the top class know who are directly related to
the politicians. There are N numbers of scams amounting to 1000 of crores
which you also know.
And compare the corruption which took during the last 14 months and how
many of them have been open to the public. Hardly ANY.
I am surely a BJP person but an INDIAN first & when ethic comes it
should only be on the side of the right person or party and you should be
able to justify your statements when you pass.
I am not disclosing my identity but think on the ground and get back,it
will be a pleasure to discuss.
Indian citizen at ORGANO
29th May 1999
Aditya, the Hindu Skeptic @bc.seflin.org
nkg wrote:
> Why to hate a family which produces so many leaders who can sacrifice
> their lives for the country.
Naresh,
I do not hate any family but the ignorance of the people who cannot
produce any other alternative. I do not think any member of this family
did any more sacrifice than so many other citizens, just being
assassinated or amassing huge sums of money in Bofors and other scandal is
no sacrifice in my book.
It is for this reason, I contend that India in neither a democracy nor it
deserves to be on. As I said just compare with Israel who got freedom
almost the same time as India did. Israel had almost equal number of
elections and its share of assassinated leaders but they have been able to
find another leader without any hesitation. There is no family link in the
its galaxy of fine leaders.
Have a peaceful and joyous day.
Aditya Mishra
Primary homepage: http://www.smart1.net/aditya
ICQ# 1131674 Mediaring Phone # 1-954-746-0442
Fax #: 209-315-8571
Random thought of the day:
Blood is thicker than water. Tastier and more nutritious too.
31st May 1999
Vinay Kumar @accessworldwide.com
The point always claimed is that BJP is the front for RSS and that has
existed for all this period. Apart from a few persons who joined BJP from
other parties when they felt that it was on the rise and likely to come to
power. But the majority are still people who have been in BJP since its
birth. Therefore it is wrong to state that all its leaders have come from
different parties.
If the only criterion for leading a country is an intimidating personality
and charisma. Than let is make Amrish Puri, Nana Patekar, Naseeruddin Shah
or Amitabh Bachhan the PM of India. They all fit the bill. Narsimbha Rao,
V. P. Singh or Gujral should never have been appointed PMs. If we look
further, persons like Laloo and Mayawati are natural candidates for the
post of PM.
We do not hate the family that has sacrificed their members - Indira and
Rajiv. But do take exception when that sacrifice is taken for granted as
the next step to PM. Did they sacrifice themselves knowingly. what about
those families who have knowingly sacrificed their sons to the cause of
India and who are not even mentioned forget getting a chance of becoming
the PM.
So, let's wake up for a change and get out of the family run country for a
change. Why can you not become the PM. Will you not sacrifice yourself for
the country as and when that occasion arises. Do you not have personality
and charisma?
Think big ............
Vinay
31st May 1999
D. Haldar @pobox.com
Naresh ! I am with you on this 100 per cent.
It is the ignorant immature personalities who have been brainwashed by the
RSS and BJP to hate a particular family and the party which has stood test
of time. How many of these saffron enthusiasts know that a RSS cadre had
killed the Father of the Nation? It really pains me to see their juvenile
remarks.
D. Haldar
1st June 1999
neeraj chaturvedi @hotmail.com
Dear Mr Haldar,
I will appreciate if you can prove that Mr. Nathu Ram Godse was RSS cadre (
Which was not proved in the judicial court, so ban on RSS was lifted bcause
it was imposed without any proof ).
Can u elaborate ... how a particular party or family stood by test of
time...what were those tests???? I will like to gather more information
about that great family and great party... any unknown/unpublished info will
be most welcome by all Rediff family.
regards
neeraj
2nd June 1999
Amit Gupta @hpsblr.soft.net
And for your information Mr Haldar, founder of RSS was a member of
congress. So does that mean that congress is the root of all evils.
Mr. J.L.Nehru first PM of India from congress was the fellow who made the
blunder of taking the J&K matter to UN for solution.....it was not
pakistan or China....it was fellow from the same family who made the
bilateral issue as multilaterla and international.....what do you say
about congress and your family?
Mrs Indira Gandhi, again from the family is the first person in the
politics of India who adopted the manipulatory and corrupt practices to
remain in seat. She was the one who reduced the power of judiciary...using
the constitutional amendments.....she was the one who started this dirty
game of constitution amendments and corruption in public life.
And these are established fact.
3rd June 1999
Preeti Goel @vsnl.com
Well said ! This is the truth and established fact too. None in India
can deny these facts. It is high time for the people of India to start
using their brain-power while selecting their leader this time.
India needs a leader with brains and relevant experience, leader who has
the ability to deal with pressures from other nations, a leader with
immense foresightedness who can bind the nation together in one single
thread, a leader who can lead without precipitating corruption or unjust
practises within the system, a leader with high moral values and ethics, a
leader who symbolises India, a leader who knows the intricacies of leading
India in competition with other nations. We cannot deny the fact that we
are at a crucial juncture where the eyes of entire world are focussed on
our country. The world would want to see now how the Indian electorate
behaves. Are we mature enough to look at the substance within or do we get
carried away by the looks, personality or charisma of people calling
themselves able politicians ?
We all have a conscience which pricks us when we know we have not been
honest. It is a pity that our politicians have chosen to overlook their
conscience. We have able politicians like Madhav Rao Scindia who are
advocating that a house-wife like Sonia Gandhi is fit for becoming the
Prime Minister of India ! What has happened to this nation ? Where are we
heading? Is not there a single politician in the Congress Party who has
guts enough to tell Mrs. Sonia Gandhi where she is heading ? But then,
people who chose to stand up and speak so were ultimately shown the way
out of the Party ! What justice ! This is sheer autocracy, blatant and
gross violation of justice in the biggest Democracy of this World ! Then
are we a Democracy for namesake ? Having a Gandhi tag is not enough to
qualify one for taking the Prime Ministership of this country. If that be
so then it is advisable for the Congress Party to nominate Priyanka Gandhi
for the PM's position in the coming elections. That way it would be able
to save itself from answering any questions about foreign origins because
as far as relevant experience for the said position is concerned there is
hardly any difference between the experience of both ! Think logically
before you choose to think otherwise.
Last month's 'Question Time India' hosted by NDTV on BBC had a panel
consisting of Hegde, I.K. Gujral, Madhav Rao Scindia and Tariq Anwar. One
member of the audience asked Scindia why they have chosen Sonia Gandhi
over others for the future PM's position in case Congress came to power.
And since only the truth has the substance in it, Scindia was found
beating about the bush with answers like... 'she has charisma to pull the
crowds, any one who can pull crowds is a leader' !!!!! At that very
moment Mr. Hegde intervened and asked Scindia... 'do you think YOU don't
have charisma for that position ?' Scindia did not know where to look...
he was looking down and smiling ! Madhav Rao Scindia did not have an
answer to this question raised by an Indian Politician, so how are these
Congressmen going to defend the country in front of millions of Indians
who are posing the same question, not to talk of the nations outside who
are surprised at the move of Congress Politicians ? It's high time we
decided what kind of a face we want India to have in front of other
nations of this world. What is India all about ? Is it about substance
within ? Or is it about Rabri Devis, Sonia Gandhis, Jayalalithas, Laloo
Prasad Yadavs ?
Tariq Anwar categorically stated towards the end of the programme (QTI by
NDTV on BBC) that they had proposed Scindia's name for the position but he
had preferred not to opt for it.
The truth is that the Congress Party always disintegrates whenever they
are minus a 'Gandhi' in their political party ! The power game within the
party becomes so intense that a section of the people within always choose
to walk out. This is one party which would always need a 'Gandhi' to lead
them, they
cannot stand on their own. Now why were they not taught to stand on their
own after being in power for more than 40 years ? Because the logic was
simple. Indira Gandhi wanted to have a monopolistic rule, and Congress
Raj during her times is a standing example of the fact. Did any Indian
after her death had the guts to ask why Rajiv Gandhi was being made the
Prime Minister ? What qualified him to be the PM of this country ? Why
only him ? Why not some other senior member of the Party who had also
handled portfolios in the Cabinet, somebody who was more qualified on
merit for the said position ? But Alas ! Time and again we have proved
that Indian People do not have the capacity to be ruled by logic, they are
more driven by emotion, sympathy and nepotic behaviour - a trait of the
electorate which the Congress Politicians have so fantastically harnessed.
It is fear which rules Congress, it is fear which keeps this party
together, it is fear of the power game which always forces them to induct
a 'Gandhi' in the Party so that all eyes are off the 'Chair' and the party
is together. This is DANGEROUS PSYCHOLOGICAL BEHAVIOUR. Political reasons
to stay together, political reasons to induct a 'Gandhi', political
reasons to topple governments, political reasons to malign the ruling
party, political reasons to choose its leaders, political reasons to expel
its party members who choose to raise their voice and most of all
political reasons to read between the lines paving way for a monopolistic
rule again !! We have seen this happening last year when so much hue and
cry was made over 'Potatoes and Onions' ! How are we tolerating such
people ? And why ? For what ? The literate electorate which can THINK is
sick of so much politicism.
Today we see more and more politicians becoming victims of this
autocractic rule, logic has given way to irrational and nepotic behaviour.
It is a pity that literate, rational and reasonable politicians like
Scindia are unable to let their conscience rule their brains. What is
wrong in Scindia being nominated for the PM's position from Congress's
side ? Does any Indian or a staunch supporter of Congress Party have an
answer to this ?
It's high time we Indians realised that the Congress Party of today is
holding the Indians at a ransom. We certainly deserve better leaders than
them. A party which does not know how to keep itself intact is certainly
not fit to rule the 'World's Biggest Democracy'.
After more than 40 years of power game and a 'monopolistic' rule, Congress
has only ended up giving us corruption in all quarters of the Economy, a
devalued system, innumerable scams, and yes... development too... but at a
cost which we all now seriously wish could be avoided. If the World's
largest Democracy chooses to develop further in the right direction, with
right kind of value system, right work ethics and a desire to compete with
the 'World Super Powers', to be a force to reckon with, then it better
choose its leaders after lot of thinking and reasoning. Nothing but merit
should be the criteria.... else we the people of India would end up paying
a heavy price in coming years for being irrational, unjust, corrupt and
unreasonable in choosing our leaders today.
Let conscience rule your emotions when you decide to behave like a
responsible electorate of the 'World's largest Democracy' this time.
And Remember, if you choose the wrong leader you have to pay the price.
Preeti
-----Original Message-----
From: Amit Gupta
And for your information Mr Haldar, founder of RSS was a member of
congress. So does that mean that congress is the root of all evils....
3rd June 1999
D.Haldar @pobox.com
Dear Neeraj,
Thank you for your enquiry. I am not a historian but what I comment is from
my personal experience. You should have no difficulty in finding the
relevant information from numerius books available on Indian history during
this period.
I have spanned the entire independence period in my life and I was an
undergraduate in Allahabad University when India got independence and
Mahatma Gandhi was assasinated. Nathuram Godse and his friend were caught
red handed shooting Gandhiji. He was definitely connected to RSS but RSS
specialises in isolating its other activities with which you cannot prove
its connection.
The case went on for a long time. Are you positive that Godse was cleared?
I doubt it. And as for lifting of ban on RSS is concerned you cannot ban
anybody for ever.
If you wish to know the contribution of Nehru family please read the
history of India during freedom struggle and after. How far this has been
put on the net I don't know but you can always use the search engines.
Before I end I would like to say that nobody is perfect in this world or
has been at any point of history. We have to consider the positive side only.
3rd June 1999
Preeti Goel @vsnl.com
Well said ! This is the truth and established fact too. None in India can
deny these facts. It is high time for the people of India to start using
their brain-power while selecting their leader this time.
India needs a leader with brains and relevant experience, leader who has the
ability to deal with pressures from other nations, a leader with immense
foresightedness who can bind the nation together in one single thread, a
leader who can lead without precipitating corruption or unjust practises
within the system, a leader with high moral values and ethics, a leader who
symbolises India, a leader who knows the intricacies of leading India in
competition with other nations. We cannot deny the fact that we are at a
crucial juncture where the eyes of entire world are focussed on our country.
The world would want to see now how the Indian electorate behaves. Are we
mature enough to look at the substance within or do we get carried away by
the looks, personality or charisma of people calling themselves able
politicians ?
We all have a conscience which pricks us when we know we have not been
honest. It is a pity that our politicians have chosen to overlook their
conscience. We have able politicians like Madhav Rao Scindia who are
advocating that a house-wife like Sonia Gandhi is fit for becoming the Prime
Minister of India ! What has happened to this nation ? Where are we
heading? Is not there a single politician in the Congress Party who has guts
enough to tell Mrs. Sonia Gandhi where she is heading ? But then, people who
chose to stand up and speak so were ultimately shown the way out of the
Party ! What justice ! This is sheer autocracy, blatant and gross
violation of justice in the biggest Democracy of this World ! Then are we a
Democracy for namesake ? Having a Gandhi tag is not enough to qualify one
for taking the Prime Ministership of this country. If that be so then it is
advisable for the Congress Party to nominate Priyanka Gandhi for the PM's
position in the coming elections. That way it would be able to save itself
from answering any questions about foreign origins because as far as
relevant experience for the said position is concerned there is hardly any
difference between the experience of both ! Think logically before you
choose to think otherwise.
Last month's 'Question Time India' hosted by NDTV on BBC had a panel
consisting of Hegde, I.K. Gujral, Madhav Rao Scindia and Tariq Anwar. One
member of the audience asked Scindia why they have chosen Sonia Gandhi over
others for the future PM's position in case Congress came to power. And
since only the truth has the substance in it, Scindia was found beating
about the bush with answers like... 'she has charisma to pull the crowds,
any one who can pull crowds is a leader' !!!!! At that very moment Mr.
Hegde intervened and asked Scindia... 'do you think YOU don't have charisma
for that position ?' Scindia did not know where to look... he was looking
down and smiling ! Madhav Rao Scindia did not have an answer to this
question raised by an Indian Politician, so how are these Congressmen going
to defend the country in front of millions of Indians who are posing the
same question, not to talk of the nations outside who are surprised at the
move of Congress Politicians ? It's high time we decided what kind of a
face we want India to have in front of other nations of this world. What is
India all about ? Is it about substance within ? Or is it about Rabri
Devis, Sonia Gandhis, Jayalalithas, Laloo Prasad Yadavs ?
Tariq Anwar categorically stated towards the end of the programme (QTI by
NDTV on BBC) that they had proposed Scindia's name for the position but he
had preferred not to opt for it.
The truth is that the Congress Party always disintegrates whenever they are
minus a 'Gandhi' in their political party ! The power game within the party
becomes so intense that a section of the people within always choose to walk
out. This is one party which would always need a 'Gandhi' to lead them, they
cannot stand on their own. Now why were they not taught to stand on their
own after being in power for more than 40 years ? Because the logic was
simple. Indira Gandhi wanted to have a monopolistic rule, and Congress Raj
during her times is a standing example of the fact. Did any Indian after her
death had the guts to ask why Rajiv Gandhi was being made the Prime
Minister ? What qualified him to be the PM of this country ? Why only him ?
Why not some other senior member of the Party who had also handled
portfolios in the Cabinet, somebody who was more qualified on merit for the
said position ? But Alas ! Time and again we have proved that Indian
People do not have the capacity to be ruled by logic, they are more driven
by emotion, sympathy and nepotic behaviour - a trait of the electorate which
the Congress Politicians have so fantastically harnessed.
It is fear which rules Congress, it is fear which keeps this party together,
it is fear of the power game which always forces them to induct a 'Gandhi'
in the Party so that all eyes are off the 'Chair' and the party is together.
This is DANGEROUS PSYCHOLOGICAL BEHAVIOUR. Political reasons to stay
together, political reasons to induct a 'Gandhi', political reasons to
topple governments, political reasons to malign the ruling party, political
reasons to choose its leaders, political reasons to expel its party members
who choose to raise their voice and most of all political reasons to read
between the lines paving way for a monopolistic rule again !! We have seen
this happening last year when so much hue and cry was made over 'Potatoes
and Onions' ! How are we tolerating such people ? And why ? For what ? The
literate electorate which can THINK is sick of so much politicism.
Today we see more and more politicians becoming victims of this autocractic
rule, logic has given way to irrational and nepotic behaviour. It is a pity
that literate, rational and reasonable politicians like Scindia are unable
to let their conscience rule their brains. What is wrong in Scindia being
nominated for the PM's position from Congress's side ? Does any Indian or a
staunch supporter of Congress Party have an answer to this ?
It's high time we Indians realised that the Congress Party of today is
holding the Indians at a ransom. We certainly deserve better leaders than
them. A party which does not know how to keep itself intact is certainly not
fit to rule the 'World's Biggest Democracy'.
After more than 40 years of power game and a 'monopolistic' rule, Congress
has only ended up giving us corruption in all quarters of the Economy, a
devalued system, innumerable scams, and yes... development too... but at a
cost which we all now seriously wish could be avoided. If the World's
largest Democracy chooses to develop further in the right direction, with
right kind of value system, right work ethics and a desire to compete with
the 'World Super Powers', to be a force to reckon with, then it better
choose its leaders after lot of thinking and reasoning. Nothing but merit
should be the criteria.... else we the people of India would end up paying a
heavy price in coming years for being irrational, unjust, corrupt and
unreasonable in choosing our leaders today.
Let conscience rule your emotions when you decide to behave like a
responsible electorate of the 'World's largest Democracy' this time.
And Remember, if you choose the wrong leader you have to pay the price.
Preeti
-----Original Message-----
From: Amit Gupta
And for your information Mr Haldar, founder of RSS was a member of congress.
So does that mean that congress is the root of all evils....
4th June 1999
Amit Gupta @hpsblr.soft.net
Dear Mr Haldar,
You are speaking from what you saw at that moment. But people deduce
different things from their observations...hope you know that half empty
and half full glass analogy. Here is another opinion.
Once i had a chat with father of my uncle who himself was a freedom
fighter. He cursed Nehru, Gandhi and Indira like hell. His view was
"Nehru, in a hurry to assume the prime ministership of India accepted the
partition of country. And he was responsible for delaying in sending to
forces to Kashmir to unite it with India. Gandhi was responsible for
giving undue concessions to Muslims of Pakistan after partition."
And Indira.....i won't even mention the opinion he had on her. His words
crossed all the limits of decency.
4th June 1999
neeraj chaturvedi @hotmail.com
Dear Mr Haldar,
I am sorry to say ... like other so called "SECULARISTS"... your reply is
just hype, just talk without any base....not a single fact mentioned...
1. I myself is not historian (I am s/w engg), but read lot of history
books on gandhi's murder ... but no book ever gave any proof that Mr Nathu
Ram Godse was an RSS member. Pls mention at least one book from your
"NUMEROUS" available book which gives any proof. (I will be greateful if
you can give publisher name also ...so that it will be easier to order)
2. NathuRam Godse surrendered himself immediately .... so you can not call
it "CAUGHT RED HANDED". He never tried to run away after commiting his
crime. From 1st day onwards till judgement day he never tried to defend
himself and openely defended moral side of his act of assasination. Pls
find the exceprts from his biography. Pls find a last paragraph of his
depostion in court also.
******************************************************************
Nathuram says
"I wanted just three seconds more. I moved two steps forward and faced
Gandhi. Now I wanted to take out the revolver and salute him for whatever
sacrifice and service he had made for the nation. One of the two girls was
dangerously close to Gandhi and I was afraid that she might be injured in
the course of firing. As a precautionary measure I went one more step
ahead, bowed before him and gently pushed the girl away from the firing
line.
The next moment I fired at Gandhi. Gandhi was very weak, there was a
feeble sound like 'aah'from him and he fell down.
Those who were close to me saw the weapon in my hand. They rushed away
from the spot. Gandhi had fallen to the ground, I was standing and the
crowd had formed a ring around us.
After the firing I raised my hand holding the revolver and shouted,
'Police, police'. For 30 seconds nobody came forward and I scanned the
crowd. I saw a police officer. I signalled to him to come forward and
arrest me. He came and caught my wrist, then a second man came and touched
the revolver... I let it go...
******************************************************************* LAST
PARAGRAPH OF NATHURAM DEPOSTION IN COURT
******************************************************************* I now
stand before the court to accept the full share of my responsibility for
what I have done and the judge would, of course, pass against me such
orders of sentence as may be considered proper. But I would like to add
that I do not desire any mercy to be shown to me, nor do I wish that
anyone else should beg for mercy on my behalf. My confidence about the
moral side of my action has not been shaken even by the criticism levelled
against it on all sides. I have no doubt that honest writers of history
will weigh my act and find the true value thereof some day in future.
********************************************************************
3. If in your opinion, RSS specialize in delinking with Nathuram and other
illegal/immoral activitis ... In my opinion (let us assume) ... Rajiv and
sonia were successful ...in delinking themself from bribe charges after
taking bribes from BOFORS, Indira Gandhi was successful in delinking
herself after conspirating LAL BAHADUR SHASTRI'S MURDER and NEHRU
successfully divided our country to become prime minister.
But sorry ... as a logical person I dont belive in all these bull****
allegations...until and unless I see/read any facts myself
4. About Banning RSS...
According to our constitution, any organization can banned forever, if it
is proved that its performing illegal activities.In fact lot of militant
organizations in punjab and Kashmir are banned for alsmost last 15-20
years. In 1949, Then prime minister Mr Jawahar Lal Nehru tried it but
judiciary cleared RSS and ban was lifted (unwillingly).
Similar foolish thing was tried in 1992 by then congress government but
they again lost to judiciary.
4. Finally, again I will like to know the same thing... which great test
of time NEHRU family passed or passing ...... I used many search engines
to locate their greatness...but ...sorry ...couldnt find one...any
specific example/site of their greatness...?????
Let us continue this healthy debate and we should try to make it more FACT
based than any personal feelings.
regrds
neeraj
7th June 1999
Aseem Asthana @bom4.vsnl.net.in
Hello,
This debate makes interesting reading. I know that Nathuram Godse's links
with the RSS could not be proved. So I guess that precludes the
possibility of linking him with RSS. Anyway, I think it was certainly
proved that he met Veer Saverkar in Bombay who held him in converstation
about the planned murder.
What ever be his motives, a civilised society can not permit murder as a
means of dissent and for that purpose he was rightfully punished. (Though
it is ironic that the punishment itself was exactly the same as the crime.
But that is another debate about capital punishment. )
I don't know why but, Mr Neeraj, you seem to be trying to delink Godse
from RSS(which might be true, for all I know) but you are also keen on
defending him. Do you justify his actions?
Aseem.
PS
1. Branding people like SECULARISTS, like it was some four lettered word
won't change the course this country is going to take, ie, of Hindus and
Muslims living together.
2. Difficult to quantify what good people do to a nation. For all the hype
and anti-hype Nehru did provide a solid industrial base to this country.
It was on this base that we now hope to win a war against Pak - better
economics, self-suffieciency. We don't have to import every thing from the
US like our friends from across the border.
And what for that matter was the accomplishement of the Bajpai govt?
Aseem.
Aseem Asthana, 239 A, New Swarg Mandir, Mhow 453441, MP, India.
Tele - 91 7324 74603/78236. Fax - (001)(847) 589-3332, ICQ #36888504
Final Yr, B. E., Department of Comp Sc & Engg,
Sri Govindram Sekseria Institute of Technology and Science, 23, Park Rd,
Indore. MP. India. Alternate Email - aseema@cyberspace.
7th June 1999
neeraj chaturvedi @hotmail.com
hi aseem,
I agree with you on most of the points. Well, I never defended Mr Nathuram
godse ... for his uncivilised, inhuman and barbaric act... that too with
innocent person like Mr Gandhi. I just put the facts on the board. In fact
I used the word **CRIME*** in my mail for his act.
About Savarkar, Again It was proved by judicial court, that Mr Savarkar
was not anyway aware/involved in the gandhi's murder. In fact Mr Savarkar
condemned Nathuram's act. Mr Savarkar was cleared of any charges.
Aseem, one fact might interest you... although savarkar was founder of
Hindu Mahasabha ... he was an athiest all his life ... he claimed... If u
r non vegeterian hindu , any meat is same as beef... which looks to me ..
he was far ahead of his time...
I may agree with you to the extent that Mr Godse might be influenced by
RSS ideology. But this kind act is never planned by RSS. Do you remember
famous "TANDOOR" murder (guy roasted his wife in tandoor) in delhi
commited by one congress youth leader. Should we assume all congress is
like that...because one fellow did something?
About Nehru family... They have done great harm to country...root of all
evils... you name the problem...it is because of congress & Nehru family..
About Industrial base... why to compare with our neighbours only... why
not with the countries like China, south korea and malaysia .. which all
started economic development around same time...but far far ahead of
india...In fact, had congress not followed Stalin and communism... we
could have been at par with any european countries... The liberalisation
we started in 80s ...we should have started in 50s itself. for last 50
years Most the public sectors are drinking money from our taxes and still
government cant close it.
regards
neeraj
8th June 1999
Vinay Kumar @accessworldwide.com
Dear Aseem,
I have been reading this dialogue with great interest. And could not
resist in joining in. The issue of RSS and Godse started of in a different
context. RSS being compared with the greatness of the Gandhi family.
I do not thing that Mr. Neeraj wants to prove that RSS and Godse have
nothing in common. What I understand from his note is that in the court of
law, it was never proved that RSS had links with Godse. Godse could be a
sympathiser of RSS but for that we cannot blame RSS.
Godse has already been punished for his so-called crime. Hence why is it
that we are still scared to discuss the reasons he gave for taking this
extreme step. Does this indicate that there is some truth in what he has
stated in his defence.
Why did we have to ban his play in Maharastra. While we can advocate
freedom of expression and object the banning of PTV in India. Is this not
a paradox.
Vinay
8th June 1999
Preeti Goel @vsnl.com
Though I would not wish to comment on Godse and his connections with RSS,
I would still wish to make and subsequently raise a point in response to
Aseem's question on Accomplishments.
Firstly, when we talk in terms of Accomplishments then we need to give
people sufficient TIME to perform and prove themselves. Let us not commit
the blunder of overlooking the fact that we gave Nehru and the 'Gandhi
clan' enough time (over 40 years) to do so... what we see today as
Industrialisation in India did not happen overnight, neither did it happen
in less than 13 months time... it took decades of hard work and labour for
the 'People of India' to accomplish this feat. Nehru or Indira Gandhi
alone were not responsible for this accomplishment.
Development is a slow process. It requires time to bear results... and
requires a far greater effort to produce 'Desired Results'. Ask any
Industrialist or a Social Worker how much TIME it takes for their efforts
to bear desired fruit. We must understand that we CANNOT have 'Instant
Economic Solutions'... this is NOT POSSIBLE.
Secondly, when we give people TIME to perform and prove themselves, then
we need to be TOLERANT as well. No individual in this world is perfect.
Neither were Nehru and Indira Gandhi. Both committed their share of
mistakes too. As we all know it was Nehru who took the issue of Kashmir to
UN... overnight a bilateral issue became multilateral... results of which
are evident to one and all today... ! The country is today paying the
price for a mistake committed by the same individual who is being lauded
for Industrialisation. And if we choose to blame the Vajpayee govt for
current Kargil crisis then the Congress govts were equally at fault during
earlier Indo-Pak wars.
So the vital question is... self-sufficiency and industrialisation at what
cost... at the cost of a war...? At a cost which is going to sap this
nations accumulated wealth... ? What we see today as self-sufficiency
would receive a major jolt if we end up having a war with our neighbour
today.
Thirdly, let's assume that the Opposition Parties during those times had
used the same Political gimmickry that they use nowadays to topple
governments... then would these accomplishments have been achieved... ?
Shouldn't the Opposition Parties of those times also be congratulated for
providing a vital support to the running of the government... ?
RESPONSIBLE and MATURE behaviour by those in Opposition is equally vital
while judging Governments on their Accomplishments.
Self-sufficiency through Industrialisation in 40 years cannot be compared
with 13 months time to produce results. There is no comparison between
unequals.
High time we saw some mature politics from the Opposition Parties of
today. And it's equally high time we saw some mature understanding by the
People of this country too. Emotions will not lead us anywhere neither
would superficial point of view.
Let's decide the basis for grading Accomplishments and the necessary
external factors to make it conducive for 'People in Power' to accomplish.
Preeti
